PAHWM: AJ sooted in MP (1 Viewer)

Board is good for our range, plus we have a gutter. Bet small here with all our holdings. Another $20.

EDIT to add: I am betting here in order to get other missed hands to fold out their equity and check back a turn that doesn't improve us. Also, if we happen to bink that gutter, the pot will be larger and we can get paid. Folding to any aggression though.
I think a $20 bet into a $100 pot is too small. A lot of missed hands will still call, and probably have the correct odds to do so. Also, it is so small it seems like a sizing tell, and is begging for a raise by any aggressive player.

I agree if there is any aggression we need to fold.
 
I think a $20 bet into a $100 pot is too small. A lot of missed hands will still call, and probably have the correct odds to do so. Also, it is so small it seems like a sizing tell, and is begging for a raise by any aggressive player.

I agree if there is any aggression we need to fold.
Maybe....but $60 is lighting money on fire. I would make the same bet here with KK as I would with AJ....Maybe $30-35 is a better number, but I think any more than that is losing money when we have to fold.
 
Maybe....but $60 is lighting money on fire. I would make the same bet here with KK as I would with AJ....Maybe $30-35 is a better number, but I think any more than that is losing money when we have to fold.
I'm fine with a smaller bet than $60, but I think $40 is the minimum on a $100 pot. anything less than that we might as well check (which is ok too, we dont have to c-bet every time here in this spot). Quite honestly, I c-bet probably 75% of the time and check 25% of the time here.
 
I'm fine with a smaller bet than $60, but I think $40 is the minimum on a $100 pot. anything less than that we might as well check (which is ok too, we dont have to c-bet every time here in this spot). Quite honestly, I c-bet probably 75% of the time and check 25% of the time here.
I would check before betting 2/3 pot in to 5 players.

The fact that this is a very loose 1/2 game makes the smaller bet size more attractive, because even if we only get 3 folds, and two calls, that's good for us. I am looking to maintain betting lead on the turn and bet that hand EXACTLY for my actual equity. We have nothing right now, but can turn or river the nuts. If that happens, bombing mode engaged. Until then, we are looking to minimize losses and see some cards.
 
I'm fine with a smaller bet than $60, but I think $40 is the minimum on a $100 pot. anything less than that we might as well check (which is ok too, we dont have to c-bet every time here in this spot). Quite honestly, I c-bet probably 75% of the time and check 25% of the time here.
In this spot that should be opposite in my opinion. C bet rarely here with no pair in a 5 way flop.

There is just too much chance that someone has a good hand. Try to get a free card, and if you can't, be done with the hand.( most of the time)
 
In this spot that should be opposite in my opinion. C bet rarely here with no pair in a 5 way flop.

There is just too much chance that someone has a good hand. Try to get a free card, and if you can't, be done with the hand.( most of the time)
Cant argue with that.
 
Well, if we were betting into 4 players (and there are 4 other players, not 5) I would agree with you. However, 3 of the other players checked to us. The flop did hit our range the most. And it is a good semi-bluffing hand, as we have no showdown value but the potential to improve.

With a gutter and backdoor nut flush draw we should usually be c-betting here.
 
I really like barreling the stack off here IP, but you need to be able to fire three streets including a meaty one on the river (for bluffing and also to get paid if your disguised hand hits) and you are not deep enough. Stupid straddle.

$40 into $100
$120-160 into $180/220/260
Pot on the river which will be $420+

Really need to have $600-800 behind on the flop. $225 not gonna get it done

Check the flop, then check for the chip runner to top off.
 
Well, if we were betting into 4 players (and there are 4 other players, not 5) I would agree with you. However, 3 of the other players checked to us. The flop did hit our range the most. And it is a good semi-bluffing hand, as we have no showdown value but the potential to improve.

With a gutter and backdoor nut flush draw we should usually be c-betting here.
My mistake....i just assumed 5 times 20 equals $100....didnt incorporate the folds.

In a loose 1/2 game, we should really be minimizing our bluffs to almost none due to the number of opponents we will usually be against and their propensity to call....thus check is correct. HOWEVER, we can improve very easily, so your argument of C-betting holds a lot of merit as well.

I am liking my c bet small line more and more. I would like to change my size slightly to $35....1/3 pot. Lock it in. 2 folds and a call would be sweet here.
 
Well, if we were betting into 4 players (and there are 4 other players, not 5) I would agree with you. However, 3 of the other players checked to us. The flop did hit our range the most. And it is a good semi-bluffing hand, as we have no showdown value but the potential to improve.

With a gutter and backdoor nut flush draw we should usually be c-betting here.
I think they X to us as we were the pre-flop aggressor and it is standard for them to X to us.
As a result I dont think their X does anything to help us narrow their ranges.
With this many players I dont think we have sufficient FE to bet here.
 
I really like barreling the stack off here IP, but you need to be able to fire three streets including a meaty one on the river (for bluffing and also to get paid if your disguised hand hits) and you are not deep enough. Stupid straddle.

$40 into $100
$120-160 into $180/220/260
Pot on the river which will be $420+

Really need to have $600-800 behind on the flop. $225 not gonna get it done

Check the flop, then check for the chip runner to top off.
I love the way you thought this through how you want to play out this entire hand before you even make your first move. Kudos to you @Frogzilla
 
I really like barreling the stack off here IP, but you need to be able to fire three streets including a meaty one on the river (for bluffing and also to get paid if your disguised hand hits) and you are not deep enough. Stupid straddle.

$40 into $100
$120-160 into $180/220/260
Pot on the river which will be $420+

Really need to have $600-800 behind on the flop. $225 not gonna get it done

Check the flop, then check for the chip runner to top off.
I agree that having a stack of $800 would have been better. Wish I had thought of that! :D
 
Made the drive to Riverside Casino (near Iowa City) on Friday. There was supposed to be a Big O game running. Unfortunately, it wasn't running, so I sat down at a 1/2 NL game. Typical low stakes crowd for a Friday afternoon. Mostly older men, and one younger semi-maniac. Lots of limp calling, and lots of 4-way+ flops. Very little 3-betting, and it practically always means QQ+.

This hand put me in a tough spot, so I'm looking for input. Typical low stakes crowd for a Friday afternoon. Mostly older men, and one younger semi-maniac. Lots of limp calling, and lots of 4-way+ flops. Very little 3-betting, and it practically always means QQ+.

1/2 NLHE

Hero has about $250. Main villain (BTN) has slightly less.

Button straddle to $4.
SB calls
BB calls
UTG calls
UTG1 calls
Hero has :as::js:

So I do raise. Probably a little small at $20. It seemed big as the first raiser, but in retrospect, I may have narrowed the field with $25-30. Maybe not.

Folds around to BTN, who calls
SB folds
BB calls
UTG calls
UTG1 calls

Pot $100

Flop :kd::th::2s:

Checks to hero.


Hero decides to check, hoping to peel a free (or at least cheap) card.

BTN bet $55
BB calls
UTG folds
UTG1 calls

Pot $265

Action on hero. Easy call getting 5:1?
 
I think getting 5:1 you need at least 17% equity or 4 outs on the flop.
22 and KT are in the caller's ranges so I think your only outs are the Qs for the nut straight.
So with 4 outs it should be a statistically neutral call with no further betting. With this many players calling someone could have one of your Qs (KQ, QT, Q9) so I could get behind either a call or a fold - its borderline IMHO - if you werent possibly facing bets on the turn and river.
Those potential bets dilute your odds and make this a fold IMHO. With this many callers, there will be future betting.
Maybe it seems too tight but I dont think your getting the odds to call given likely future betting.
IMHO fold.
 
I would add that you have runner-runner spades as a nut draw but I think that's only an out and a half so doesnt change the analysis IMHO.
 
22 and KT are in the caller's ranges so I think your only outs are the Qs for the nut straight.
Is this how the analysis is being done these days? You actually credit a villain with any hand in their range?
Serious question.
Because the way I’ve heard the analysis done (probably by Little, or maybe Polk) is a little more complex than that.
FWIW, I agree that this is a fold, but my analysis is far simpler, and also I suck at cash.
 
My point with that comment is that I don’t think your Ace is very likely to be live with this many callers and the previous action so the remaining 3 Aces don’t constitute outs. Your only clean outs IMHO are the Queens and with this many players continuing it is very possible that one of your outs is in another player’s hand. If we’re counting outs for the purpose of deciding to make a call IMHO with this number of players we should only count outs to the nuts.
 
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There are also hands like AT and QJ in Villans ranges that make and A a dirty out for us. Same principle; the more of those hands in V’s range times the number of Vs, the more we have to discount those Aces as clean outs. HUP we might decide to count 1 or 1.5 Aces out of 3. Here I’m counting none of them.
 
Yeah...with the number of callers here I'm probably laying this down. Drawing to four outs basically.
 
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I've only read the preflop and flop action without any responses. Sorry if this is redundant.

Pre: The decision to raise depends on what you're looking to accomplish by raising. If you're hoping to fold out the button and most of the limpers, a substantial raise ($25-$30) is appropriate. This is also contingent on your opponents' propensity to fold after limping. Some players will try to see a flop regardless of price or position after they've limped... and once others call the raise they're even more likely to call even if it's just to play 'bingo'.

So, much has to do your opponents' tendencies. AJs is a nice starting hand but if you can anticipate multiple callers anyhow - it becomes more like PLO where you're really just building a pot for someone... hopefully you but you're going to have to smash the flop to drag the pot. Limping isn't the worst option either since you'll be folding the flop a lot of times here. I'd probably prefer a get-in-cheap-get-out-cheap approach here.

On the flop, you've flopped a gutshot, an overcard and a BD FD. Not bad but against 4 opponents someone certainly has connected strongly with this flop.

So the action checks to you... your action here pretty much depends on how many folds you think you can induce if you bet. The purpose of betting is to induce as many folds as possible and hopefully win outright. IMO, people don't fold top pair in low stakes games such as this... and you have to assume QJ, A10, etc. might also come along for the turn regardless of how much you bet.

So by betting you're essentially bluffing. A standard C-bet ($45-$65) will certainly induce some folds, but probably not 4. Are you willing to jam ANY turn card to apply max pressure? Because that's the only way you're dragging this pot if it continues past the flop. And even then you might get a crying call from 'top pair shitty kicker'. Stacking off here seems to be -EV.

As such, I'd advocate a check and hope the button checks back. If the button bets a reasonable amount ($25-$30), you might peel the turn hoping to bink the broadway draw or improve to a combo draw which would give you 12 outs on the river. An ace might also be a winner but it could improve an opponent's hand as well. So giving up here to any significant aggression is probably the best play.
 
Just read the rest of the flop...

Well now you know a c-bet would have been futile LOL :)

So you're getting 5:1 + your implied odds if you bink the 4-outer. You also have added equity of potentially improving to the NFD (assuming the turn doesn't pair the board).

So there are 4 amazing turn cards that allow you to get it in as a huge favorite, and another 6 that keep you interested. In short, if you call there's about a 25% chance you'll either really like or love your hand after the turn.

Assuming you call, there will be ~$320 in the pot and you'll have ~$175 left in your stack.

Whether you should proceed depends on a few things, but let's assume that improving to a flush or a straight is required to win for simplicity.

So let's say for instance the turn keeps you interested... like the :7s: or something. It checks to the button who sets you in. Your other opponents fold leaving you with a binary decision. You'll be getting about 3:1 on a call as roughly a 4:1 dog. If EV is your primary factor for making these types of decisions, then folding is obvious, and you should fold the flop here too since you'll never have odds to call in most scenarios.

But if you're like me, where I'm not a professional gambler and maximizing my EV isn't always the driving force in my decision making (especially in low stakes games), then I might gambool it up :)

So all of this is to say what to do on this flop depends on what you're willing to do on the turn if you improve to a combo draw. If you're folding every time you miss the gutter broadway draw, then folding the flop is the only choice. But if you've got a little gamble in you...
 
Made the drive to Riverside Casino (near Iowa City) on Friday. There was supposed to be a Big O game running. Unfortunately, it wasn't running, so I sat down at a 1/2 NL game. Typical low stakes crowd for a Friday afternoon. Mostly older men, and one younger semi-maniac. Lots of limp calling, and lots of 4-way+ flops. Very little 3-betting, and it practically always means QQ+.

This hand put me in a tough spot, so I'm looking for input. Typical low stakes crowd for a Friday afternoon. Mostly older men, and one younger semi-maniac. Lots of limp calling, and lots of 4-way+ flops. Very little 3-betting, and it practically always means QQ+.

1/2 NLHE

Hero has about $250. Main villain (BTN) has slightly less.

Button straddle to $4.
SB calls
BB calls
UTG calls
UTG1 calls
Hero has :as::js:

So I do raise. Probably a little small at $20. It seemed big as the first raiser, but in retrospect, I may have narrowed the field with $25-30. Maybe not.

Folds around to BTN, who calls
SB folds
BB calls
UTG calls
UTG1 calls

Pot $100

Flop :kd::th::2s:

Checks to hero.


Hero decides to check, hoping to peel a free (or at least cheap) card.

BTN bet $55
BB calls
UTG folds
UTG1 calls

Pot $265

Action on hero. Easy call getting 5:1?
As played, I fold. You are getting 5:1, however you have to beat 3 other players. You are probably not seeing both cards for that 1 bet, so you really are drawing once to 4 outs.

Easy fold.
 
I agree easy fold in this spot. With two other people calling the button's bet, you are most assuredly beat. You don't have enough to bluff anyone off their hand. Even if you jam here, it is $175 more to win $320. SOMEBODY (maybe multiple people) won't go away.
 
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1/2 NLHE

Hero has about $250. Main villain (BTN) has slightly less.

Button straddle to $4.
SB calls
BB calls
UTG calls
UTG1 calls
Hero has :as::js:

So I do raise. Probably a little small at $20. It seemed big as the first raiser, but in retrospect, I may have narrowed the field with $25-30. Maybe not.

Folds around to BTN, who calls
SB folds
BB calls
UTG calls
UTG1 calls

Pot $100

Flop :kd::th::2s:

Checks to hero.

Hero decides to check, hoping to peel a free (or at least cheap) card.

BTN bet $55
BB calls
UTG folds
UTG1 calls

Pot $265


Hero's eyes were bigger than his stomach, and the $265 enticed him to make a call.

Pot $310. Hero has about $170 behind.

Turn :8s:

Hero now has a nut flush draw to go with the gutter and one over card.

I never considered that an A would give me the best hand, as there were a couple sets (TT and 22) and two pair hands, plus AKo in villain's range. KQ and KJ were possibilities, but unlikely.

Action on hero.
 
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So there are 3 other guys with a meaningful interest in this pot. I think that you are obviously behind here with a 12 out draw so have 24% equity with one card to come if none of the Qs are in other players' hands which is a possibility based on the board, the action and the number of villains. 3 players X to you. No matter what you do on this street, you're probably facing a bet here and again on the river, diluting your odds. I dont think you have any fold equity with a jam here; you're getting called at least once (and maybe twice) by someone who is ahead of you. The only real bet size given the SPR is a jam, so I check hoping to see a free card.
 
Hero's eyes were bigger than his stomach, and the $265 enticed him to make a call.

Pot $310. Hero has about $170 behind.

Turn :8s:

Hero now has a nut flush draw to go with the gutter and one over card.

I never considered that an A would give me the best hand, as there were a couple sets (TT and 22) and two pair hands, plus AKo in villain's range. KQ and KJ were possibilities, but unlikely.

Action on hero.
Without knowing players tendencies, I have the following generic observations.

It's unlikely there are any sets in the field. Maybe the button flopped a set - but the other two opponents flat called when 1) they're OOP; and 2) the pot is already large. One would expect a flopped set to play fast when the opportunity to do so presents itself.

It also seems like someone holding pocket 10s or Ks would have raised preflop instead of just flatting the $4 straddle. Maybe these are super passive opponents... but it just seems unconventional.

The button could very well have just been stabbing at it when checked to on the flop. While he may have loved the fact that he made a sizeable bet as the non-pf aggressor and was called in 3 places...I suspect he's just as likely to be unhappy with all the action he got on his flop bet.

So the turn didn't complete any obvious draws. The button may very well check back the turn, or he might jam. It's hard to imagine a scenario where he bets less than his entire stack. It's tough because without knowing the button's playing style, it's hard to say what to do.

Checking gains you more information and will allow you to make a better decision if the button bets. If the button bets and the other two opponents fold, you need to fold only getting 3:1 pot odds to chase a 4:1 draw. But if someone calls, you'll now be getting even money to call so it doesn't matter what you do since it's all the same EV-wise. And if both your opponents call, well then you'll be getting favorable odds to chase your draw.

So that's pretty much the case for checking.

The case for jamming is pretty straightforward. The button might not be all that strong, and the other opponents haven't shown any initiative to this point. Jamming might induce 3 folds... and you have 10 clean outs and maybe as many as 12 outs if you get called. If you can run the river twice, that'd be even better.

Jamming on the other hand deprives the button of the opportunity to make the mistake of giving you a free card.

So I lean toward checking, since it allows you to make a much better decision if you're faced with one, and you might just get a free card out of it.
 

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