PAHWM: A5s on Button 3 way vs Blinds (1 Viewer)

Legend5555

Full House
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Jul 15, 2019
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Location
Georgia
Mavens Site - Fox Poker
Micro Stakes
Full Ring

Game is playing loose and splashy. Most pots are multiway raised affairs, but there is also a lot of limping. Typical for all levels below 2/5 on this site.

Folds to hero on button. A real rarity for it to fold around.

HERO (140bb) :ad::5d: raise to 3bb.
SB (48bb) calls.
BB (120bb) calls.

Pot: 9bb
SB (45bb)
BB (117bb)
HERO covers.
Flop: :5s::6d::jd:

Checks to HERO.

HERO?
 
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Continued

Mavens Site - Fox Poker
Micro Stakes
Full Ring

Game is playing loose and splashy. Most pots are multiway raised affairs, but there is also a lot of limping. Typical for all levels below 2/5 on this site.

Folds to hero on button. A real rarity for it to fold around.

HERO (140bb) :ad::5d: raise to 3bb.
SB (48bb) calls.
BB (120bb) calls.

Pot: 9bb
SB (45bb)
BB (117bb)
HERO covers.
Flop: :5s::6d::jd:

Checks to HERO.

HERO bets 3.5bb.
SB calls.
BB calls.

Pot: 19.5bb
SB (41.5bb)
BB (113.5bb)
HERO covers.
Flop: :5s::6d::jd::7h:

SB checks.
BB bets 19bb

HERO?
 
Played a fairly standard line to this point. 19BB bet properly denies equity so it’s a fold for me. Not to mention, there’s one player to act behind you.

There is a caveat here (I’m not taking it in this spot) if we are sure that we can get hero’s stack on the river, I might gamble. That has to be a definite read in this scenario, and it’s definitely not a habit you want to get into.
 
Fold. Agree - you dont have direct odds to make the call. If you have implied odds his stack is big enough to make it worth it.
My guess is he either has 89 or 77. He called flop with a PP or straight draw, didnt raise as he hadnt made his hand so wasnt afraid of the FD. Now the 7 makes his hand and he wants to move players off the FD by betting large.
 
Will villain fire on a diamond river? If so I think you could peel, otherwise I don't love calling this turn bet OOP their OOP bet. If they are firing the scare card here, well done for them.

Edit: I meant to say "calling their OOP bet"
 
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Continued

Mavens Site - Fox Poker
Micro Stakes
Full Ring

Game is playing loose and splashy. Most pots are multiway raised affairs, but there is also a lot of limping. Typical for all levels below 2/5 on this site.

Folds to hero on button. A real rarity for it to fold around.

HERO (140bb) :ad::5d: raise to 3bb.
SB (48bb) calls.
BB (120bb) calls.

Pot: 9bb
SB (45bb)
BB (117bb)
HERO covers.
Flop: :5s::6d::jd:

Checks to HERO.

HERO bets 3.5bb.
SB calls.
BB calls.

Pot: 19.5bb
SB (41.5bb)
BB (113.5bb)
HERO covers.
Flop: :5s::6d::jd::7h:

SB checks.
BB bets 19bb

HERO?
What stakes are we playing here? Just to get a general idea for the player pool.

Flop: I think either option is fine. I think there's plenty of merit to checking back, but I'd bet this hand IP. We can easily call a raise, and both SB and BB should have plenty of suited hands that continue that we can overflush when the third diamond peels.

Turn: in the moment, I'm definitely calling. Probably a -EV call against range based on pure equity, but I think if we don't hit a diamond we can bluff and take it away when the river cooperates and BB checks. Drawing to the nuts, and this is a really good diamond combo blocking sets. If we're folding this, I don't think we're calling any diamond combos, and I don't like that. BB should be unusually weighted toward value since donk bluffing multiway is scary/hard to do, and since we've got all the good hands in range in this formation, but people in my pool also seldom do this sort of thing with nutted hands, so it seems like vulnerable value like Jx or two pair, or bluffs that beat us like 87/86. Though we lose to those hands, we can theoretically blow them off on the river when the board cooperates. Throw in a couple of non-paired diamond combos into BB's range, and I'm even more intrigued.

But, after spending a little more time thinking about it, I'm sad folding. I just don't see many check-folds from BB on the river, without knowing more about the player. True, that means our rivered diamonds likely get some value, but again that doesn't happen frequently enough for the price being laid. Airball bluffs like Kd8d have got to blast off on most cards. 98 will probably sigh-call a board pair, sets (and maybe even two pairs) will probably sigh-call a one-liner, and we don't get scare cards frequently enough on rivers to bluff at, anyway. I think our bluffs would be targeting Jx and 87/86, but I don't think a ton of Jx donks the turn for this size, and I don't think 87/86 shut down on most rivers through this line. I think it's near suicidal to bluff-raise the river with this combo if villain takes a bet-bet line, and I don't think we've got enough showdown value to call down, especially since we lose to the most logical bluffs like 87/86/64/etc. Plus, if BB ever checks river as a trap, then we just get smashed. And a rivered A or 5 might just give us another reason to call with a losing hand.

So, the price + the fact that it's gonna be hard to know what rivers besides diamonds to put money in the pot (as a bluff or a call-down) + the possibility of just getting blown off on the turn by further action from SB/BB = sad fold from the calling station. Am I a nit now?
 
Mavens Site - Fox Poker
Micro Stakes
Full Ring

Game is playing loose and splashy. Most pots are multiway raised affairs, but there is also a lot of limping. Typical for all levels below 2/5 on this site.

Folds to hero on button. A real rarity for it to fold around.

HERO (140bb) :ad::5d: raise to 3bb.
SB (48bb) calls.
BB (120bb) calls.

Pot: 9bb
SB (45bb)
BB (117bb)
HERO covers.
Flop: :5s::6d::jd:

Checks to HERO.

HERO?
Great flop. Bet 2/3 pot...or if you bet all flops small, do that. Whatever your standard Cbet is, do that.
 
Continued

Mavens Site - Fox Poker
Micro Stakes
Full Ring

Game is playing loose and splashy. Most pots are multiway raised affairs, but there is also a lot of limping. Typical for all levels below 2/5 on this site.

Folds to hero on button. A real rarity for it to fold around.

HERO (140bb) :ad::5d: raise to 3bb.
SB (48bb) calls.
BB (120bb) calls.

Pot: 9bb
SB (45bb)
BB (117bb)
HERO covers.
Flop: :5s::6d::jd:

Checks to HERO.

HERO bets 3.5bb.
SB calls.
BB calls.

Pot: 19.5bb
SB (41.5bb)
BB (113.5bb)
HERO covers.
Flop: :5s::6d::jd::7h:

SB checks.
BB bets 19bb

HERO?
Yuck. I am guessing that was a gin card for BB...my guess is 2 pair or better. We are deep, and we are not done. We still have lots of ways to win....any diamond, 5, or possibly an A. Call the bet.
 
But, after spending a little more time thinking about it, I'm sad folding. I just don't see many check-folds from BB on the river, without knowing more about the player. True, that means our rivered diamonds likely get some value, but again that doesn't happen frequently enough for the price being laid. Airball bluffs like Kd8d have got to blast off on most cards. 98 will probably sigh-call a board pair, sets (and maybe even two pairs) will probably sigh-call a one-liner, and we don't get scare cards frequently enough on rivers to bluff at, anyway. I think our bluffs would be targeting Jx and 87/86, but I don't think a ton of Jx donks the turn for this size, and I don't think 87/86 shut down on most rivers through this line. I think it's near suicidal to bluff-raise the river with this combo if villain takes a bet-bet line, and I don't think we've got enough showdown value to call down, especially since we lose to the most logical bluffs like 87/86/64/etc. Plus, if BB ever checks river as a trap, then we just get smashed. And a rivered A or 5 might just give us another reason to call with a losing hand.
We have a ton of equity in this and the V still has almost 100bb's back, not to mention we are in position. Great place to peel. Maybe we can't profitably bluff, but if he has a straight and we river the flush, we can get his stack. It is costing us 19 bb's to draw to minimum 7 outs (about 15% to the stone nuts) to win up to 120 bb's.

expected value: 120*.15 - 19.5*.85 = +1.425 big blinds

So, just drawing to only the 7 outs that are the nuts is profitable (assuming we get stacks in), but we have other ways to hit where we can improve....AAA 55 7d where we could beat a hand like 78 or 67 that WOULD lead out on this turn.

I think calling here is overall profitable.
 
Played a fairly standard line to this point. 19BB bet properly denies equity so it’s a fold for me. Not to mention, there’s one player to act behind you.
The aces and fives are also outs most of the time, so getting 2:1 pot odds makes this close.

I think I am going to call here since it's a combo draw, a dry flush draw would be a tougher sell without some certainty of additional river payoff.
 
We have a ton of equity in this and the V still has almost 100bb's back, not to mention we are in position. Great place to peel. Maybe we can't profitably bluff, but if he has a straight and we river the flush, we can get his stack. It is costing us 19 bb's to draw to minimum 7 outs (about 15% to the stone nuts) to win up to 120 bb's.

expected value: 120*.15 - 19.5*.85 = +1.425 big blinds

So, just drawing to only the 7 outs that are the nuts is profitable (assuming we get stacks in), but we have other ways to hit where we can improve....AAA 55 7d where we could beat a hand like 78 or 67 that WOULD lead out on this turn.

I think calling here is overall profitable.
I don't know that I disagree necessarily. My instinct was to peel. I think it's a very close spot, and if I think we can bluff villain profitably on some rivers then I think it's a slam dunk call. Even without that, you and @JustinInMN are definitely right that our A and 5 are clean outs some percentage of the time, and the puts the call closer to breakeven.

A clarifying question for me to understand the profitability here. If we call BB's bet and SB folds, then we've got 57.5 big blinds in the pot, and villain is the effective stack with 94.5 big blinds behind. If villain checks on a rivered A, 5, or diamond, are we shoving for 1.6x pot? That seems like an insane bet with two pair or trips (totally understand it with the flush), but should my polarized value be wide enough to include those hands here?
 
A clarifying question for me to understand the profitability here. If we call BB's bet and SB folds, then we've got 57.5 big blinds in the pot, and villain is the effective stack with 94.5 big blinds behind. If villain checks on a rivered A, 5, or diamond, are we shoving for 1.6x pot? That seems like an insane bet with two pair or trips (totally understand it with the flush), but should my polarized value be wide enough to include those hands here?
It is good to realize this is an awkward stack size to the pot. Getting an overcall from the SB would be a coup and put us closer to a pot size bet and improve our equity with such a good draw.

The only way to change the ratio would be to go for a small raise now.

Personally, if checked-to as hero, my default would be to bet about 50-60% of pot with any improvement because in many cases when the hand improves, I am hoping for a crying call from Jx. If a villain shoves over that after checking, obviously I will call with the nuts and re-evaluate with other holdings.
 
If V is betting Jx here I would like to play in this game. Is V like "*heavy sigh* thank god the flush didnt come in - both my opponents must be on the FD so let me take this down now with a pot sized donk bet with JTo."
I cant see V playing Jx like this on Ignition or ACR fast fold.
 
If V is betting Jx here I would like to play in this game. Is V like "*heavy sigh* thank god the flush didnt come in - both my opponents must be on the FD so let me take this down now with a pot sized donk bet with JTo."
I cant see V playing Jx like this on Ignition or ACR fast fold.
This site CERTAINLY isn't like Ignition or ACR. That much I can tell you. Much more like live poker.
 
Question: If we are saying that an A and a 5 are sometimes clean outs (I’ll agree that a %age of the time they are) how often are we betting the river at that point? Asking because I’m trying to understand if we are ever going to get anymore value on those hands, or if we are just setting ourself up for unnecessarily tough decisions?
 
In my limited experience when V spazzes on a card (i.e. makes a weird move like donking pot multiway) that specific card had a big impact on his hand.
I honestly think he has 67, a set of 7s here or just hit his straight and is going bananas to keep it from X through and see the diamond dramatically reduce his just made hand's value.
 
Fold for me.

I would have bet bigger on the flop. Probably 2/3 - 3/4 pot.

But, I suck at poker sooo....
 
If V is betting Jx here I would like to play in this game. Is V like "*heavy sigh* thank god the flush didnt come in - both my opponents must be on the FD so let me take this down now with a pot sized donk bet with JTo."
I cant see V playing Jx like this on Ignition or ACR fast fold.
Is it really impossible that villain checked a jack on this flop?

In my limited experience when V spazzes on a card (i.e. makes a weird move like donking pot multiway) that specific card had a big impact on his hand.
I honestly think he has 67, a set of 7s here or just hit his straight and is going bananas to keep it from X through and see the diamond dramatically reduce his just made hand's value.
Well the bigger the hand the harder it will be to get away from if hero improves. 14 outs to aces up or better are good unless villain has a set or a straight. 7 outs to the nuts if villain has a set and 2 additional outs to a winner if he has a straight. Surely there implied odds are good unless villain is really going to make a big laydown here. (Again, I really wouldn't be looking to shove the river here if as here I improve and get checked to. But I am going to bet about half-pot to target this range or worse.)

I think if you measure the pot by the worst case scenario it's a fold. But there are a lot of good scenarios in between that I think make this a pretty clear call.
 
Is it really impossible that villain checked a jack on this flop?
X/C flop could be Jx, but donk lead turn for pot doesnt seem like Jx unless it's J7.
I mean its pretty optimistic to donk Jx (not J7) for pot size into tow players given the connectedness of the board here
 
Also there's a player to act after us. That makes folding more attractive.
I disagree completely. If we get an overcall here it's a great price to draw to the nuts. And what is this player going to check twice and raise two players with?
 
Conclusion

I tanked for a bit and folded. I couldn't think of a clear plan of how I would proceed on the river. Plus the short stack behind if he plays is likely just going to get it in, and I didn't want to call and face a jam from the SB.

I was also not sold that I was going to get all the BBs money if I got there.

I fold.
SB calls :unsure:.
River completes the flush.
SB lead jams for 1/3rd pot.
BB tanks and FOLDS!
SB shows :td::9d:.

Whomp whomp.
 

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