What’s the plan if villain goes ahead and jams on us (which, btw, A7 is a really good hand to turn into a river bluff because too weak to call and has great blockers). It’d be a $1600 bet into a pot of $2000 so pretty reasonable.
From the description of the villain and the action, I have a difficult time with the notion that he is capable of coming to the (correct) conclusion that the only way he can win is by inducing a fold. Think about the flop action: he spikes top pair and is bet into... and his inclination is to raise. But to his surprise HERO repops it - which slows him down a bit but he's not disciplined enough to fold a pair of aces. So even if he suspects he's outkicked, the prospect of two opportunities to improve are too enticing to release the hand.
The scenario you described is the one drawback to a smallish river value bet... it does convey a bit of weakness (blocker bet-ish) and there's no way villain is going to believe HERO holds a nine here. So a bluff-raise is a possibility.
For my analysis, what nines could villain hold? I think if he held A-9, we'd have heard about it on the flop or turn. 9-7 is a possibility considering the snap call on the turn... but would this villain really tank then call a reraise on this flop against this HERO? I think only the fishiest of players would play 9-7 this way.
So to answer your question - this is a really bad spot to turn your hand into a bluff. If HERO bets $350 and indeed faces a raise, I think it needs to be paid off.
You want to check to induce a bluff when your opponent's range is significantly loaded with totally whiffed draws. In this case, the obvious draw backs into a weak two pair, so I think it's hard for him to have a pure bluffing hand. if he has any pair, like an 8 from having the 78 straight draw from the flop, it makes some sense to just show it down. This is even truer for a weak ace.
Bet a smallish amount on the end, enough that it's not ridiculously small, but small enough that he'll have to call with at least an ace. MoxieMike's $350 fits the bill, but if he raises, I don't think it should get paid off unless we have some additional info to support that decision.
This was an unraised pot that started as a $20 limp and is now over $1,000. Hero has only had TPTK the whole way, and now aces up over a board pair. This is how people go broke with big Hold'em openers in deep-stack situations.
I don't think it should get paid off unless we have some additional info to support that decision.
This was an unraised pot that started as a $20 limp and is now over $1,000. Hero has only had TPTK the whole way, and now aces up over a board pair. This is how people go broke with big Hold'em openers in deep-stack situations.
So in your experience, how do you range the button after his 1) preflop shenanigans; and 2) decision to check his option after 2 'limpers'? My feeling is that he checked his option because 1) he has a decent enough hand to take a flop in position and 2) suspected a re-raise was coming.
You're right - it comes down to HERO's read of the opponent.
My view is that the villain might not be the savviest of players, but he isn't stupid enough to play 9-X on the flop this way. Conversely, if he held a 2-pair hand that contained a nine, the money would already have been in the middle before the river card hit the board.
So in the event of this hypothetical shove, his FH range must include a flopped (or turned I guess) set - which seems quite unlikely given the way this all played out. It's possible he played a set passively in line with players who wait for made hands to shove all in, but from the description, I doubt it.
I'm not too sure about how the button straddle works, but this is my thoughts on this hand.
Villains range is highly polarized from the 3bet on the flop. What are the value hands that we beat here? What are the bluff's that Villain still has? Hero's 3bet effectively strengthened Villains range on the flop and we usually are not playing against many bluff combinations, unless Villain is particularly bad and spewy and would call with small underpairs or gutshots or backdoors like TJhh, 7Thh or clubs etc. The turn bet/call action doesn't narrow his value ranges, unless he plans to bluff rivers most/all scary rivers, of which there shouldn't really be any except a 7 or some backdoor club.
The river 9 is a great card for us. We should check/call a decent sized bet here a lot and realise our equity if he does have some bluffs/worse Ace. Going for thin value, might be a little too hopeful to be called by worse and if Villain is creative, jamming here to a small blocker type bet would put us in a tough spot.
Regardless of how this turns out, I hope you rack up after this hand and read the floorperson who made that ruling the riot act. There is no place in gaming establishments for that much of a difference in decisions.
Regardless of how this turns out, I hope you rack up after this hand and read the floorperson who made that ruling the riot act. There is no place in gaming establishments for that much of a difference in decisions.
Although I agree with you, at my local casino any ruling is highly dependent on who the floor is at any given time. It sucks, but they are the only game in town.
Although I agree with you, at my local casino any ruling is highly dependent on who the floor is at any given time. It sucks, but they are the only game in town.
Although I agree with you, at my local casino any ruling is highly dependent on who the floor is at any given time. It sucks, but they are the only game in town.
That's exactly my problem as well and this is the only 5/T game within 5 hours. No choice but to deal with it. Although I'm fortunate that when I complain to the head management it carries more weight than the average reg because I'm in their regularly, I tip the good floors well, and don't complain often.
That's exactly my problem as well and this is the only 5/T game within 5 hours. No choice but to deal with it. Although I'm fortunate that when I complain to the head management it carries more weight than the average reg because I'm in their regularly, I tip the good floors well, and don't complain often.
By comparison, 5/5 are the LOWEST stakes here at the casino in Zurich, with max buy-in of 1500 (Swiss Franc is roughly equivalent to USD). Far too rich for my blood and pretty much the singular reason I don't play in the casino here.
Really curious how this hand turns out. As an admittedly very basic-level cash game player, I find discussions like these extremely helpful and a valuable insight into the thought processes of the many players here with far more experience than I.
Action:
New dealer arrives. Seat 2 is the button, Seat 3 posts $5, Seat 4 posts $10, Seat 2 posts a pile of red chips as a button straddle. Somewhere between $100-$125. Previous dealers have only allowed $20 on the button. This dealer doesn't say anything and proceeds with the action.
Seat 3 calls $20, Seat 4 folds and starts asking what is the deal with the button situation. Most players are like whatever leave the money there. As seats 5/6/7 fold there are still no objections or decisions made. Meanwhile Seat 2 says if the floor comes over this is going to be a blind raise.
*Floor did get called twice before about $100 straddles and both times forced it down to $20.
Hero looks down at
Hero decides on a flat call of $20 with the plan to LRR for a few reasons:
1) Avoiding calling attention to his hand.
2) Wanting to get the action to the button quickly so the blind raise stands.
3) There are 2 aggressive players behind Hero that might raise. Not to mention that we will get to see what Seat 3 does before acting again.
*Vs any of these players Hero is willing to shove PF and play for stacks.
Action Continues:
Seat 10 folds, Seat 1 folds and now the dealer says your action Seat 2. He says oh, I'll just call and pulls back ~$100. A player not in the hand objects before Hero can, floor comes over, asks about what happened, and rules, that he can't put out more than $20 for a straddle and anything above that doesn't count. Therefore it's like the chips aren't there and he can do what he wants. Seat 2 elects on checking his option. Hero mumbles profanities under his breath....
*The usual floor that Hero loves, that is always there when he plays, and makes consistent rules was gone. He would bind his action as a raise 100% of the time. This fill in is apparently highly inconsistent.
3 players to Flop ($70):
Seat 3 (SB) checks, Hero bets $45, Seat 2 raises to $125, Seat 3 folds, Hero raises to $300, Seat 2 thinks for about 20 seconds and calls.
Turn ($670):
Hero bets $350, Seat 2 calls quickly
River ($1,370):
Hero check, Seat 2 checks back
Hero shows his hand and is good. While Seat 2 was folding he tilted his card back just enough that Hero could make out A5o.
Hero was actually me throughout this hand. I felt like this was a pretty unique hand due to the dynamics created by the button straddle/blind raise.
Preflop: I felt like Seat 1 might go after Seat 2's $ or that Seat 2 would just keep the raise out and I'd be able to get fancy preflop which is something that I typically don't do (this thread shows why).
Flop: I'm obviously unhappy having to play an unraised pot with AKs fairly deep against a loose player. The good news is has shown me a propensity for getting all his money in light and not understanding how stack depth works. I highly considered just overbetting the flop to build the pot faster, but obviously I prefer keeping more of his range in the hand. When Seat 2 raises here I'm not surprised. That was money he was basically trying to light on fire preflop and decided not to. Therefore I felt like this was a I'm trying to steal this pot raise.
In addition, I felt like with the shit he pulled that any pair in his hand was removed as he would've raised those and believed that A9 was in that same category. That only leaves A6 and 69 beating me and I block A6. Basically I'm crushing his value raising range so I put in a smaller 3 bet. Once he calls I'm confident he has an A, 78, or a 9 with a backdoor straight card (9T, 98, 97) who decides to peel getting almost 3:1 on a call.
Turn: Not my favorite card in the deck especially since I don't have a club meaning he could've picked up the flush draw if he holds Ax suited. If he has 87, 97 or T9, he also picked up some more equity. However all of those hands I'm still ahead so a bet is in order. A half pot bet gives him incorrect odds to call with all his draws if he can't get any more $ on the river.
River: I was surprised to see most didn't seem to mind the 9. Personally, I hated it even though it makes it less likely he has a 9. I figured a river value bet in this spot was just to thin, plus it gives him a chance to blow me off the hand (remember I thought he'd have a 9 here). When I checked I remember thinking please don't pot this as that's going to suck. However, I'm calling it off for all the reasons I 3bet flop/turn as all of the draws missed and I'm beating all As (minus A9 which he doesn't have here) including A6 and even a lucky A8 now. Thankfully, he had some showdown value that he wanted to take it and I don't get put into a tough spot.
Floor: We had some words. He didn't understand why he was wrong, and I got to the point where it wasn't worth it. Especially since our game was next to the podium and I didn't want anyone to know that I was upset by the ruling. I'm done tipping him for a long time however. I spoke with the floor I like the following week and he just rolled his eyes.
