PAHWM: 25NL Zone at Ignition (JsJc in BB) (1 Viewer)

[boltonguy]

25NL 6-max anonymous fast fold. No reads, no HUDs.
Villain in UTG is effective stack with $27.84.
UTG opens to $0.75 (3BB open is standard).
Folds to Hero in BB with

Hero?

 

[bluegill]

Raise to $2.25 seems pretty standard in that game.

 

[Eriks]

Call some and raise some. I’d make it $3 oop

 

[Legend5555]

3 bet to $2.75 - $3.

 

[boltonguy]

Hero in BB 3 bets to $2.35 with which as @bluegill noted is standard for the game.
Villain in UTG calls. Pot is $4.80. it is heads up.
Flop is

Hero?

 

[Eriks]

Check/call any reasonable bet

 

[bluegill]

Check/call any reasonable bet

What he said

 

[Legend5555]

These are the flops I struggle the most with, in addition to top pair on wet boards.

I don't use solvers, but I feel this flop doesn't heavily favor one of you over the other. The biggest difference is that presumably you can't have 66 or 88. But your opponent can't have AA or KK, and possibly not even QQ. Also unlikely he has much of AK given it's 6 max. There are no two pairs you should have to worry about. And if you always relinquish the lead with 99-JJ here, then you are just playing a guessing game.

All said, I think betting might be slightly better than checking. But it may not be by much.

 

[boltonguy]

So I agree with you @Legend5555. I did put this in PokerSnowie which isnt a solver per se but does provide GTO play for a specific scenario. For Snowie this is a 100% check. For 25NL Zone, I think GTO is too passive - checking here would likely lead to a 3/4 to pot bet (as almost noone checks the flop when they are strong) and the response at these stakes is to push back hard with the IP player's entire range to get a fold. I would have a hard time calling a 3/4 to pot bet; I would call but would be uncomfortable. So I would rather keep the initiative and set a cheaper price to see a turn. If V raises I'm folding here.

I'm thinking what you're thinking: UTG is unlikely to have AA, KK, AK (these would all be 4bet pre even IP in this game), 66 or 88 (both are probably folded). His calling range definitely includes 3 combos of AQs and 3 combos of QQ; maybe he also call with KQs for 3 more combos for 9 total but I am ahead of every other combo, probably about 30+ if he's calling with 99+, A9s+, JTs. I dont think he's calling AQo-. So I'm good 2/3 of the time here but I do want protection from overcards and a draw so I want a bet. Given the number of hands that do beat me, I'm going to bet on the smaller side.

Hero bets $1.78 or as close to 1/3 pot that his brain can compute in the remaining 10 seconds allocated after going through all of the above.
Villain calls. Turn is .

Pot is $8.36, board is . Hero holds in the BB and covers Villain in UTG.

Hero?

 

[nightbird]

These are the flops I struggle the most with, in addition to top pair on wet boards.

I don't use solvers, but I feel this flop doesn't heavily favor one of you over the other. The biggest difference is that presumably you can't have 66 or 88. But your opponent can't have AA or KK, and possibly not even QQ. Also unlikely he has much of AK given it's 6 max. There are no two pairs you should have to worry about. And if you always relinquish the lead with 99-JJ here, then you are just playing a guessing game.

All said, I think betting might be slightly better than checking. But it may not be by much.

I agree that always checking with JJ here would not be optimal. On the flop i think we should bet JJ sometimes and check it sometimes, I choose to check when I have the and bet the other combos of jacks for around 40% of the pot.
definitely checking after the turn.

 

[Eriks]

So I agree with you @Legend5555. I did put this in PokerSnowie which isnt a solver per se but does provide GTO play for a specific scenario. For Snowie this is a 100% check. For 25NL Zone, I think GTO is too passive - checking here would likely lead to a 3/4 to pot bet (as almost noone checks the flop when they are strong) and the response at these stakes is to push back hard with the IP player's entire range to get a fold. I would have a hard time calling a 3/4 to pot bet; I would call but would be uncomfortable. So I would rather keep the initiative and set a cheaper price to see a turn. If V raises I'm folding here.

I'm thinking what you're thinking: UTG is unlikely to have AA, KK, AK (these would all be 4bet pre even IP in this game), 66 or 88 (both are probably folded). His calling range definitely includes 3 combos of AQs and 3 combos of QQ; maybe he also call with KQs for 3 more combos for 9 total but I am ahead of every other combo, probably about 30+ if he's calling with 99+, A9s+, JTs. I dont think he's calling AQo-. So I'm good 2/3 of the time here but I do want protection from overcards and a draw so I want a bet. Given the number of hands that do beat me, I'm going to bet on the smaller side.

Hero bets $1.78 or as close to 1/3 pot that his brain can compute in the remaining 10 seconds allocated after going through all of the above.
Villain calls. Turn is .

Pot is $8.36, board is . Hero holds in the BB and covers Villain in UTG.

Hero?

If you think checking would lead to villain betting almost his entire range then why would it be uncomfortable to call? That would make checking the clear play imo

 

[Legend5555]

If you think checking would lead to villain betting almost his entire range then why would it be uncomfortable to call? That would make checking the clear play imo

To me, the issue is that even if our opponent does bet range here (which would be a clear mistake), we are playing fast fold. Ranges tend to be stronger on average. By always giving up the lead, we put ourselves at risk of losing more often I think. Our hand can't stand multiple barrels on most run outs. But our hand is likely to be good on the flop the majority of the time. That's why I think a mixed strat on the flop is best. By betting we have some semblance of control of how big this pot gets, and how big a turn bet we face assuming we check most turns.

But again, these kinds of spots are ones I struggle with. Since I don't use solvers, I'm just guessing based on my experience and what I've read and watched from better players that so use solvers.

I'm curious... If JJ is a check, then what hands (value and bluffs) are bets here.

 

[Eriks]

To me, the issue is that even if our opponent does bet range here (which would be a clear mistake), we are playing fast fold. Ranges tend to be stronger on average. By always giving up the lead, we put ourselves at risk of losing more often I think. Our hand can't stand multiple barrels on most run outs. But our hand is likely to be good on the flop the majority of the time. That's why I think a mixed strat on the flop is best. By betting we have some semblance of control of how big this pot gets, and how big a turn bet we face assuming we check most turns.

But again, these kinds of spots are ones I struggle with. Since I don't use solvers, I'm just guessing based on my experience and what I've read and watched from better players that so use solvers.

I'm curious... If JJ is a check, then what hands (value and bluffs) are bets here.

Good post. I agree it’s probably not always a check. There is of course some value in betting (flush/straight draws, 99-TT can call, we deny equity to Ax/Kx-hands) but we’re not getting 3 streets of value, maybe 2 but more likely just one. Betting twice turns our hand into a bluff.

Don’t use solvers either so this is just imho:

Betting (mostly; mixing in some checks) AK/AJdd, AK-AJo, QQ, AQ, AA-KK

Possible checks (mixing in some bets)
JJ-TT, AxAd, AdKx, QdQx

 

[Legend5555]

On the turn I'm not sure how we can do anything other than check and hope for a check back. We aren't blocking any flushes and our opponent can have nearly all the broadway diamonds as well as QX and QX with a diamond. No realistic straights from our opponent completed, but that's about the only positive here.

 

[boltonguy]

Pot is $8.36, board is . Hero holds in the BB and covers Villain in UTG.

Hero checks. Villain bets $1.84 or about 1/4 pot.

Hero?

 

[Eriks]

Not a great turn card obviously. Clear check as played. Don’t think I can fold to that small bet, he could possibly be betting small with like TT, Ad8x (prolly not in calling range pre though) or some random one diamond float. I’m check/folding the river unless the jack of hearts hits though

 

[Legend5555]

It's hard to imagine villain would bet that small for real value. At best it feels like a Q that doesn't want to miss out on value, but doesn't feel super comfortable with the board. Which is silly, because you basically can't have a flush here as played, so KQ and AQ should be pretty happy.

I'd make a sad call and fold to river aggression.

 

[boltonguy]

Don’t think I can fold to that small bet, he could possibly be betting small with like TT, Ad8x (prolly not in calling range pre though) or some random one diamond float.

It's hard to imagine villain would bet that small for real value. At best it feels like a Q that doesn't want to miss out on value, but doesn't feel super comfortable with the board. Which is silly, because you basically can't have a flush here as played, so KQ and AQ should be pretty happy.

I agree with both of your points that this bet cannot possibly represent strength. TT is really what came to mind immediately maybe even with .
@Legend5555 I do think I would play , , or even exactly like this. I think it is not out of the question for me to have the flush as I am definitely 3! all these hands pre from the BB. Maybe mix up flop with 1/3 pot lead and X/R.

Snowie has this a 100% fold FYI.

His tiny bet looks like he is scared of the flush - and doesnt have the flush so, as I think I am still ahead, I decide to X/R. This targets a lone Queen - maybe AQs and KQs (both non-diamonds which are more likely).

Hero X/R to $7.68 or about 3/4 pot. Villain calls. Not cool
River is the brickiest brick there ever was because if he gets here with 34 he has earned my entire stack.

Pot is $23.68. Board is . Hero holds in the BB and covers Villain in UTG.

Hero?

 

[Legend5555]

I would have much preferred to have the Jd to make this play as it cuts some of his potential flushes.

Less than a pot sized bet left. Your x/r I think looks weird because I don't think it's very likely you x/r a flush or AdX. I'm not sure you x/r much of anything here honestly. Do you expect villain to fold a set or AQ if you go for it? Because if not, I feel like bluffing here is just torching money. At this point it really seems like villain has a non-nut value hand. I don't generally think you make money by trying to make people fold sets in the micros.

I think I just chicken out and give up here.

 

[Legend5555]

The reason I don't like playing a nut flush like this is because I'm not sure how you balance bluffs. I also feel like you give the villain an escape hatch by x/r when he value bets non-flush, non-sets, that might call a larger bet but not call a x/r.

 

[Eriks]

I would have much preferred to have the Jd to make this play as it cuts some of his potential flushes.

Less than a pot sized bet left. Your x/r I think looks weird because I don't think it's very likely you x/r a flush or AdX. I'm not sure you x/r much of anything here honestly. Do you expect villain to fold a set or AQ if you go for it? Because if not, I feel like bluffing here is just torching money. At this point it really seems like villain has a non-nut value hand. I don't generally think you make money by trying to make people fold sets in the micros.

I think I just chicken out and give up here.

I agree your hand looks weird. His turn bet didn’t look super strong but he still called your check/raise. He could have something like AdQx and I don’t think he’ll fold that to a river jam. I have a hard time knowing what to do here because I would have played flop and turn differently. As played I would probably give up on the river.

 

[boltonguy]

At this point, I'm not sure my hand is good. It is possible that he has TT with a diamond although that would be crazy to call the X/R with that hand as hes getting poor adds to call IMHO. I'm also think that maybe he has AKo with a diamond that didnt 4 bet. So maybe it's 50/50 that im good.

I want to get to showdown and once again I feel like I need to bet as I want to set a cheaper price than checking and facing a large bet. If V raises I'm folding.
Pot is $23.68 so Hero block bets $3.75 to try to get to showdown cheap.
Villain calls and shows

OK - I'm one lucky fish!

 

[Legend5555]

At this point, I'm not sure my hand is good. It is possible that he has TT with a diamond although that would be crazy to call the X/R with that hand as hes getting poor adds to call IMHO. I'm also think that maybe he has AKo with a diamond that didnt 4 bet. So maybe it's 50/50 that im good.

I want to get to showdown and once again I feel like I need to bet as I want to set a cheaper price than checking and facing a large bet. If V raises I'm folding.
Pot is $23.68 so Hero block bets $3.75 to try to get to showdown cheap.
Villain calls and shows

OK - I'm one lucky fish!

His call on the turn given his exact hand is rather optimistic even if your line makes no sense. What river is he calling a jam on that isn't the straight flush?

 

[Eriks]

At this point, I'm not sure my hand is good. It is possible that he has TT with a diamond although that would be crazy to call the X/R with that hand as hes getting poor adds to call IMHO. I'm also think that maybe he has AKo with a diamond that didnt 4 bet. So maybe it's 50/50 that im good.

I want to get to showdown and once again I feel like I need to bet as I want to set a cheaper price than checking and facing a large bet. If V raises I'm folding.
Pot is $23.68 so Hero block bets $3.75 to try to get to showdown cheap.
Villain calls and shows

OK - I'm one lucky fish!

Lots of weirdness in this hand but I’d say you got max value .

 

[boltonguy]

Absolutely!