PAHWM: 25 NL Zone @ Ignition (KK in UTG) (1 Viewer)

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boltonguy

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25 NL Zone @ Ignition. Fast-fold 6-max. No HUDs no reads.

Ignition Hand #4088300425 Zone Poker ID#1692 HOLDEMZonePoker No Limit [MVS] - 2021-03-16 00:16:42 UTC
Table Info: Version: 1, Type: MVS, Stakes: $0.10-$0.25, Table: 00400606-0
Seat 1: Big Blind ($24.15 in chips)
Seat 2: UTG [ME] ($23.85 in chips)
Seat 3: UTG+1 ($31.15 in chips)
Seat 4: UTG+2 ($39.81 in chips)
Seat 5: Dealer ($16.13 in chips)
Seat 6: Small Blind ($24.68 in chips)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
UTG [ME] : Card dealt to a spot :ks::kh:
UTG [ME] : Raises $0.75 to $0.75
UTG+1 : Folds
UTG+2 : Folds
Dealer : Calls $0.75
Small Blind : Folds
Big Blind : Folds

*** FLOP *** :qh::9s::5d:
UTG [ME] : Bets $0.75
Dealer : Raises $3.20 to $3.20

Hero?
 
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The SPR is awkward, it is roughly ten. I wonder if Hero can draw conclusions about a villain playing ~80bb rather than close to 100+ bb?

Is Hero pot committed on the flop? I'd say no, generically. But Hero is going to get run over if he folds an over-pair to one raise.

Is Hero pot committed if he continues in the hand? The pot would be $7.90, effective stacks $12.18. I think yes, Hero is playing for stacks if he puts in one more call / raise.

I don't think Hero should fold. Raising lets the villain play pretty close to perfectly, let's not do that. Remember, calling the raise is pot commitment in most cases.

I vote call the flop bet and check the turn. Maybe villain will hang himself with top pair. Hero wants to keep villain's full range in play. But he can spring the trap sooner or later.

DrStrange
 
@DrStrange I agree with your assessment.

When I think what hands hero is raising here, I dont think it is sets. Certainly V has QQ, 99 and 55 in his range as all those hands probably flat a UTG open most of the time and QQ/99 may raise some small % of the time. I have done nothing to show strength with just a normal cbet so nothing to make V think I will call so this doesnt look like a "grow the pot when I'm ahead" move rather "end the hand now" move. I think a set would raise facing a FDFD on flop but there is no FD so ruling out a set. I think AQ and A9 would raise here for protection or of course JT open ended, KJ for the gutshot (which I block) all of which can be suited and have a BDFD. So nothing that beats my hand.

His stack is short as you note which suggests a weaker player as stronger players tend to top up to 100 BB.

So generally I think I'm ahead here and my overpair is pretty well disguised. A raise would end the hand now which I dont want, so Hero flats.

Ignition Hand #4088300425 Zone Poker ID#1692 HOLDEMZonePoker No Limit [MVS] - 2021-03-16 00:16:42 UTC
Table Info: Version: 1, Type: MVS, Stakes: $0.10-$0.25, Table: 00400606-0
Seat 1: Big Blind ($24.15 in chips)
Seat 2: UTG [ME] ($23.85 in chips)
Seat 3: UTG+1 ($31.15 in chips)
Seat 4: UTG+2 ($39.81 in chips)
Seat 5: Dealer ($16.13 in chips)
Seat 6: Small Blind ($24.68 in chips)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
UTG [ME] : Card dealt to a spot :ks::kh:
UTG [ME] : Raises $0.75 to $0.75
UTG+1 : Folds
UTG+2 : Folds
Dealer : Calls $0.75
Small Blind : Folds
Big Blind : Folds
Pot is $1.85

*** FLOP *** :qh::9s::5d:
UTG [ME] : Bets $0.75
Dealer : Raises $3.20 to $3.20
UTG [ME] : Calls $2.45
Pot is $8.25

*** TURN *** :qh::9s::5d: :js:
UTG [ME] : Checks
Dealer : Bets $2.73
Pot is $10.98

Hero?
 
Things have gotten "wetter". More for villain's range than Hero's.

Time to put the money in. I vote jam - this is less than a pot sized raise.

Not a fist-pump. Hero can easily be behind,
 
@DrStrange Interesting - I had not considered jamming here. Can worse hands call or are we just looking to deny equity to draws? I would be concerned that I would only be called by hands that beat me here. Thoughts?
 
This looks like a $9.45 jam into a 13.71 pot or a bit less than 70% pot. Villain would need just under 30% equity to call.

Villain has a lot of "pair + draw" hands. Mostly a pair plus the OESD or pair plus gut shot, but an occasional flush draw too. From villain's point of view she is drawing to nine to fourteen outs, if in fact villain is behind. < hero has blockers, but villain doesn't know this> I think it is plausible for villain to call with most of these hands.

We don't know if villain would stack off with just one pair - say she holds AQ. The same pot commitment Hero feels likely is in play for villain. Sure Hero could fold out top pair / no draw hands. But villain has put a lot of chips in the pot for a bet - bet - fold line to feel like the right thing to do.

Villain also could have two pair, in which case Hero has ~25% equity. Villain isn't folding two pair to a jam.

Hero isn't folding any hand better than his kings. But villain is calling a pretty wide range of hands that are behind at the moment.

As noted previously, Hero is not fist pumping here. Villain's calling range has a chunk of nice draws, some of which are getting a fair price. Villain is ahead sometimes. And on a good day villain can't let go of top pair.

Jamming is no sure win. But I like jamming better than a call - call - ??? line with an over-pair.
 
@DrStrange appreciate your analysis, thank you. I discounted straight draws except JT (which just made middle pair) as I hold the Kx2 and didnt see BN calling with 8T. Plus if V had KT and just made the straight the bet size didnt make sense IMHO.
With the downbet on the flop as a % of flop it didnt feel like a flushdraw - felt like an attempt to get a fold on flop that didnt work and the :js: on turn didnt change much, but V was hoping she was still ahead, maybe AQ or A9. Also you see a lot of players not wanting to check as they are very likely to face a pot sized bet and blown off their hand - so I was looking at this more like a block. Medium strength hand trying to see a river at this 1/4 pot price so I just called.

Ignition Hand #4088300425 Zone Poker ID#1692 HOLDEMZonePoker No Limit [MVS] - 2021-03-16 00:16:42 UTC
Table Info: Version: 1, Type: MVS, Stakes: $0.10-$0.25, Table: 00400606-0
Seat 1: Big Blind ($24.15 in chips)
Seat 2: UTG [ME] ($23.85 in chips)
Seat 3: UTG+1 ($31.15 in chips)
Seat 4: UTG+2 ($39.81 in chips)
Seat 5: Dealer ($16.13 in chips)
Seat 6: Small Blind ($24.68 in chips)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
UTG [ME] : Card dealt to a spot :ks::kh:
UTG [ME] : Raises $0.75 to $0.75
UTG+1 : Folds
UTG+2 : Folds
Dealer : Calls $0.75
Small Blind : Folds
Big Blind : Folds
Pot is $1.85

*** FLOP *** :qh::9s::5d:
UTG [ME] : Bets $0.75
Dealer : Raises $3.20 to $3.20
UTG [ME] : Calls $2.45
Pot is $8.25

*** TURN *** :qh::9s::5d: :js:
UTG [ME] : Checks
Dealer : Bets $2.73
UTG [ME] : Calls $2.73
Pot is $13.71

*** RIVER *** :qh::9s::5d: :js: :3s:
UTG [ME] : Checks
Dealer : Bets $7.77
Pot is $21.48 and V has $1.68 behind.

Hero?
 
boltonguy said:
25 NL Zone @ Ignition. Fast-fold 6-max. No HUDs no reads.
Click to expand...
I can appreciate everyones analysis and the like, but when choosing this format and given the effective stacks the hand pretty much plays itself. I may be over simplfying things here but your kings are either good here or they arent. Your hand is way too strong to be folding on almost all runouts. This is not one of them. Id be just looking for ways to get all my oponents money into the pot one way or another.
 
@davislane more hands per hour in zoom/zone so better training IMHO. I started at 5NL last year and moved up to 25NL this year. Profitable last month and looking profitable this month at 25NL so I look at it as a training exercise in hand reading, sizing tells, math, etc. If I'm losing I have a leak against the average player in the pool I think its just that simple so I track all hands in PT4 and run leak tracker, review hands, etc. all to try to get better as a player. So far this month I have played 4,485 hands last month 11,800 hands.

Regular 6max on Ignition is still anonymous but HUD stats collect while your at the same table as someone but dont persist across tables so only so useful given the limited sample size. If you have 50+ hands the HUD stats can be reliable but below that is less reliable. Like VPIP over 20 hands isnt super meaningful nor is 3! percent as they could have just caught a run of cards, etc. Plus I find it very slow.

I do occasionally play Global Poker - HUDs dont work there but you can color tag and take notes on players there across sessions. I find that nit-infested and incredibly slow! To your point though the ability to profile players does remove a LOT of the fastfold variance as there your playing the average player in the pool versus knowing this guy is a nit and never bluffs in this spot and vice versa.

There are very few online poker options in the state I am in - I tried to join ACR which is supposed to have a better player pool than Global Poker but I couldnt ever get the registration email. I do think i like the rate of play in the fast fold game despite the other drawbacks and I do think I am developing as a player. I'll probably keep playing fastfold until I feel like I cant develop any more. Next stop 50NL but not quite yet!
 
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@davislane So I thought about your post and I got my Americas Card Room (ACR) account activated and transferred some bitcoin (which was a total ripoff BTW) and played a few hours of very slow 6 max and them some fastfold 6 max with a HUD. The fastfold is so much harder than ignition, makes ignition look very soft - the HUD works on fastfold - of course you need to have enough hands but the pool has < 150 players so after 2 hours I was getting good reads. Holy cow - lots of super tight and aggro players. I played for 2 hours, 665 hands and won $0.77. Ouch! Maybe I will stay on Ignition.

BTW who ever designed the ACR UI should be waterboarded. Ignition is a super-clean dream UI compared to that cluttered garbage!

Appreciate the idea - I'm going to mix it up on both sites for a while and see if the use of the HUD is worth what looks like a smaller edge.
 
It’s interesting how we are taking completely different approaches to poker training at 25NL.

You’re doing six-max fast fold and I’m doing regular full ring. I run two tables.

While you’re going more hands per hour as your approach, I am going fewer hands, but more engagement throughout, both when I’m in the hand and not.
 
@Chester Copperpot what does your BB/100 winrate look like? This is my month so far with 5,317 hands. Puts me at 5.52 BB/100.
Big session of runbad/tilting two weeks ago. If I can keep my head on straight and play disciplined I can do OK.

1616270752959.png
 
@davislane So I'm finding that Ignition is more fishy on the passive side (like V calling three streets with bottom pair) and ACR is fishy on the aggro side (like many V having 3-bet preflop HUD stats >20%) so its an interesting contrast. ACR rake is 3.3% and ignition is 5%. Also 25NL zoom runs on ignition and only 10NL & 50NL run on ACR so I am playing 10NL on ACR and 25NL on Ignition.

Over an hour of fast fold I am consistently making more money on Ignition and it is less stressful as the aggression is less. ACR does get quite nutty with all the 3bets pre; I had one guy 3bet me pre with T7o; as a result there isnt much fold equity pre-flop so 3 betting light OP isnt a great idea IMHO despite how often it happens. This morning I called a 3bet pre IP with 9Ts and it checked all the way to showdown and I won without connecting with the board and I just sat there thinking - what did he have 23o??

Also you dont get hole cards on ACR so it is harder to develop a model of player pool tendencies unless you call everything down! On Ignition you can d/l hole cards for every hand after 24 hours so easy to see if they are bluffing, etc. whaich isnt useful on a player-by-player basis as it is anonymous, but helps to build a statistical model for the pool's tendencies. I do think that if I play on ACR and can win consistently and move up to 50NL zoom that I will be a better player. I am already defending 3bets (especially IP) lighter and playing back harder and semi-bluffing more when the board favors my range vs V to get/stay positive on ACR. It is nice to have the choice!
 
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