PAHWM: .25/.50 KJs tough spot? Or easy?

Legend5555

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I will not reveal player names. I don't even remember who all else was at the table, though I do remember the specific people in this hand. I have not played with them much. Then again, I don't play but for maybe an hour every other night, so I don't have a ton of experience with anyone.

VILLAIN 1 is a looser player. From what I've seen this session, limps a good amount. But also raises to 5x-6x with marginal holdings. 3 bets minimum almost exclusively when he 3 bets. Makes min bets post, and just generally small sizings post flop in what looks like an attempt to stop opponents from raising or being larger.

VILLAIN 2 I have much less a read on. Seems fairly aggressive post flop especially when he has the lead, but also doesn't seem to fold pre once he has decided to put any money in.

9 handed
$100 effective
.25/.50 NLHE

HERO is on the button with :ks: :js:.

VILLAIN 1 (UTG+2) raises $2.
UTG+3 calls.
VILLAIN 2 (CO) calls.

HERO?
 

Eriks

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I will not reveal player names. I don't even remember who all else was at the table, though I do remember the specific people in this hand. I have not played with them much. Then again, I don't play but for maybe an hour every other night, so I don't have a ton of experience with anyone.

VILLAIN 1 is a looser player. From what I've seen this session, limps a good amount. But also raises to 5x-6x with marginal holdings. 3 bets minimum almost exclusively when he 3 bets. Makes min bets post, and just generally small sizings post flop in what looks like an attempt to stop opponents from raising or being larger.

VILLAIN 2 I have much less a read on. Seems fairly aggressive post flop especially when he has the lead, but also doesn't seem to fold pre once he has decided to put any money in.

9 handed
$100 effective
.25/.50 NLHE

HERO is on the button with :ks: :js:.

VILLAIN 1 (UTG+2) raises $2.
UTG+3 calls.
VILLAIN 2 (CO) calls.

HERO?
Yuck, 9 handed. Probably just call although villain 1 may not be very positionally aware so perhaps his early position raise doesn’t have to mean as much. 5-6 handed I would 3-bet
 

boltonguy

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I almost exclusively play 6-max and this hand is definitely a 3bet bluff vs UTG limp/raise in that game. With another caller I would just flat as I prefer a stronger hand for squeezing even with position.

I'm calling here.
 

bluegill

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If it were just villain #1, I might consider 3betting. With there being a raise and a call, easy fold for me.
 

Eriks

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KJs suited looks better than it is. It plays worse multiway than heads up.

Fold > 3-bet > call. Even on the button.

If it were just villain #1, I might consider 3betting. With there being a raise and a call, easy fold for me.
I don’t play full-ring but fwiw folding KJs on the button seems way too tight to me.
 

DrStrange

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The hand is 200bb deep. Not knowing how the blinds will play, let's just say if Hero calls the average pot is 20bb. That makes the SPR = 10.

So what is Hero's goal? Flop top pair/good kicker and hope it is good enough? The table reads are incomplete, but what we do know is the villains are loose and agro. Hero is often going to be put to the test, deciding how to respond to aggression.

Maybe hero can flop a draw? The straight draws are mostly to nut hands. The flush draw is commonly the second nut draw. It sounded to me like fold equity is hard to come-by. On a happy day hero will flop a monster draw + pair or combo draw. But happy days are few and far between.

It is hard to fold too much at a full ring table playing hold'em. The name of the game should be Texas fold'em. If folding is an error, the cost is likely small or tiny. But calling and then making the second place hand is going to hurt.

Been there, done that, learned better -=- DrStrange

PS I'd feel differently if this was a passive, fit-fold sort of table.
 
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Eriks

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The hand is 200bb deep. Not knowing how the blinds will play, let's just say if Hero calls the average pot is 20bb. That makes the SPR = 10.

So what is Hero's goal? Flop top pair/good kicker and hope it is good enough? The table reads are incomplete, but what we do know is the villains are loose and agro. Hero is often going to be put to the test, deciding how to respond to aggression.

Maybe hero can flop a draw? The straight draws are mostly to nut hands. The flush draw is commonly the second nut draw. It sounded to me like fold equity is hard to come-by. On a happy day hero will flop a monster draw + pair or combo draw. But happy days are few and far between.

It is hard to fold too much at a full ring table playing hold'em. The name of the game should be Texas fold'em. If folding is an error, the cost is likely small or tiny. But calling and then making the second place hand is going to hurt.

Been there, done that, learned better -=- DrStrange
True that ”happy days” are few and far inbetween but we’re paying a small price to try to find one. Depending on how many opponants we face we can also make moves on flops like T9x with one spade. We can flop oesd, fd (yes they will often be second nut draws but this is HE not PLO) 2-pairs. In position it’s often quite possible to correctly assess the relative strength on a Kxx/Jxx flop.

Like I said earlier, I don’t play full-ring so I realize I might be full of shit here :). I only want to draw out some further discussion and explanation from you that do play full-ring.
 

Legend5555

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Continued...

Hero has done all 3 options before. But this time decides to go with the aggressive option since he is in position, there is dead money to win, and the ranges may not be as strong as they should be.

9 handed
$100 effective
.25/.50 NLHE

HERO is on the button with :ks: :js:.

VILLAIN 1 (UTG+2) raises $2.
UTG+3 calls.
VILLAIN 2 (CO) calls.
HERO raises to $12.
VILLAIN 1 tanks and calls.
UTG+3 folds.
VILLAIN 2 calls fairly quickly.

Pot: $38.75
Eff stack: $88
Flop: :kc::jd::ad:

Checks to HERO.

HERO?
 

Eriks

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Wow tough spot. I guess we should bet as we certainly have the range advantage and probably the best hand but one that is really vulnerable. I’d really hate to get raised here, though. Villain 2’s range shouldn’t hit this very hard. Guess he could have QT but I would think he has a lot of pocket pairs TT and lower.

Villain 1 shouldn’t have AA/KK/AK too often and we block AJ and JJ. I think I would bet but could be convinced to check behind. Do not think we can play for stacks or even get multiple streets of value. Interested to hear what others would do.
 

detroitdad

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I hate holdem. I want too say bet 35. Then that leaves us with a shit stack. Feels like a check or a shove ( in sure both are wrong lol )
 

tabletalker7

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You got to bet something (you can't let diamonds draw free here) but realize you could also be betting into Broadway here. Your pre flop raise really f-ed you over. I want to say bet 30, but then if you get a caller you lost. Any less doesn't make diamonds fold here. That raise to 12 really screwed the pooch here.
 

Legend5555

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You got to bet something (you can't let diamonds draw free here) but realize you could also be betting into Broadway here. Your pre flop raise really f-ed you over. I want to say bet 30, but then if you get a caller you lost. Any less doesn't make diamonds fold here. That raise to 12 really screwed the pooch here.
I think it ended up bad because of the 2nd caller. Against a single opponent, this spot isn't nearly as awkward.
 

boltonguy

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I am with @Eriks: neither villain should have AA/KK/AK as those would/should be 4bet pre and the AJ/JJ blockers decrease the likelihood that we're behind right now. V "shouldn't" call a multi-way 3 bet with QT but given that these players are loose that is a risk. Obviously the board is draw heavy and there are both queens and tens in pre-flop 3 bet calling ranges (e.g. AQ, KQ, TT).

Overall we're ahead of more hands that we're behind IMHO. Will better hands fold? NO Will worse hands call? Yes - draws will call, any Q will call. Multi-way I size down, so I'm betting 25 - 33% and hoping for a clean runout. If the runout gets ugly we can check/fold without stepping away from too much $$ here; if the runout gets good for us we can size up.

Hero bets $10.
 

Eriks

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Overall we're ahead of more hands that we're behind IMHO. Will better hands fold? NO Will worse hands call? Yes - draws will call, any Q will call. Multi-way I size down, so I'm betting 25 - 33% and hoping for a clean runout. If the runout gets ugly we can check/fold without stepping away from too much $$ here; if the runout gets good for us we can size up.

Hero bets $10.
I like this
 

Schmendr1ck

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neither villain should have AA/KK/AK as those would/should be 4bet pre
I wouldn't take AK out of V1's range. He sounds like a player who likes to control pot size on 3+ bet pots preflop. I can (and have) seen this kind of player flatting a 3-bet with AK pre, especially out of position. I'm way less worried about one of the villains flopping broadway with QT, though it sounds like it's more likely for V2 than V1.

Stack sizes are so awkward here. I see the logic for a $10 bet, but I think we get raised a lot when we bet that small. If the goal is to get it in on this flop then I'm behind that.

If we want to maintain control and get calls from draws and TP-type hands, I'd prefer something like $25 with a plan to shove for half pot on any blank/K/J turn.
 

Eriks

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I wouldn't take AK out of V1's range. He sounds like a player who likes to control pot size on 3+ bet pots preflop. I can (and have) seen this kind of player flatting a 3-bet with AK pre, especially out of position. I'm way less worried about one of the villains flopping broadway with QT, though it sounds like it's more likely for V2 than V1.

Stack sizes are so awkward here. I see the logic for a $10 bet, but I think we get raised a lot when we bet that small. If the goal is to get it in on this flop then I'm behind that.

If we want to maintain control and get calls from draws and TP-type hands, I'd prefer something like $25 with a plan to shove for half pot on any blank/K/J turn.
This also sounds resonable. Maybe this is what we get for not listening to @DrStrange : a really tough spot
 

DrStrange

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Bottom two pair is not nearly as good as we want to think it is on this Broadway flop.

But . . . . the SPR is barely over two. I think Hero is pot committed with his/her two pair. So, hero is getting stacked when he is behind < unless he sucks out >. The question to me is jam it in now or make this a two step move.

Options: 1. Go all in. No hard decisions. But Hero will miss out on value vs some of the draws out there.

2. Bet $25. Planning to jam most turns.

I think I like jamming the flop best. We have villain reads that these guys are sticky. Maybe AQ/KQ calls? For sure the big combo hands call - some of which have better than 50% equity.

Make no mistake, this can be a suicide attack. Variance will be high. Even so, I think hero is +EV.

Buckle up, butter cup -=- DrStrange
 

tabletalker7

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I wouldn't take AK out of V1's range. He sounds like a player who likes to control pot size on 3+ bet pots preflop. I can (and have) seen this kind of player flatting a 3-bet with AK pre, especially out of position. I'm way less worried about one of the villains flopping broadway with QT, though it sounds like it's more likely for V2 than V1.

Stack sizes are so awkward here. I see the logic for a $10 bet, but I think we get raised a lot when we bet that small. If the goal is to get it in on this flop then I'm behind that.

If we want to maintain control and get calls from draws and TP-type hands, I'd prefer something like $25 with a plan to shove for half pot on any blank/K/J turn.

This also sounds resonable. Maybe this is what we get for not listening to @DrStrange : a really tough spot
This is why the pre flop raise really screws the pooch here. If hero just called the $2, the pot would be much smaller, and the pot size bet is both affordable and gets your point across that you have a real hand. Now you are stuck with two choices (and both of them are TERRIBLE) - either check and let people draw against you in a scenario where even if you improve you won't have the nut hand, or go for all your stack in a situation where I highly doubt you have the best of it. That pre flop raise killed the hero totally. The more I think about this, the more check and fold to any bet seems like the best way out of this mess.
 

Legend5555

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This is why the pre flop raise really screws the pooch here. If hero just called the $2, the pot would be much smaller, and the pot size bet is both affordable and gets your point across that you have a real hand. Now you are stuck with two choices (and both of them are TERRIBLE) - either check and let people draw against you in a scenario where even if you improve you won't have the nut hand, or go for all your stack in a situation where I highly doubt you have the best of it. That pre flop raise killed the hero totally. The more I think about this, the more check and fold to any bet seems like the best way out of this mess.
But @DrStrange didn't think 3 betting wasn't a viable alternative. There are some winning players from reputable training sites that would certainly advocate for a 3 bet with KQs and even QJs. Not that's it's something they would do 100% of the time, but I don't think it's a play that you should never do. There is a good amount of dead money out there.

3 bet squeezing is a very strong play that can result in a lot of free wins. It looks bad in this exact spot because the pot turned out multiway. But the multiway is what makes this have tough and interesting. If just one person called, then the pot is $28 with $88 behind which is much better set up for a 2 street large bet plan. Or even a 3 street plan starting with 25-30% on flop depending on board texture.

I normally don't go into this much detail explaining my reasoning before the end of the hand, but this one is very complex.
 

Jimulacrum

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I wouldn't take AK out of V1's range. He sounds like a player who likes to control pot size on 3+ bet pots preflop. I can (and have) seen this kind of player flatting a 3-bet with AK pre, especially out of position. I'm way less worried about one of the villains flopping broadway with QT, though it sounds like it's more likely for V2 than V1.

Stack sizes are so awkward here. I see the logic for a $10 bet, but I think we get raised a lot when we bet that small. If the goal is to get it in on this flop then I'm behind that.

If we want to maintain control and get calls from draws and TP-type hands, I'd prefer something like $25 with a plan to shove for half pot on any blank/K/J turn.
This is closer to my thinking than most other replies.

KJs seemed like an okay hand to take to a flop, for $2 with $98 behind, and in position, especially knowing that V1 bets too small post-flop. With a player like that, you have a lot of room to take cheap cards for your draws, which favors playing small ball with a hand like this (unless and until you smash the board, of course).

Unfortunately, the preflop 3-bet really distorted this hand. In a perfect world, you should avoid playing any 3-bet pots with second-best-hand makers like KJ, especially in a full ring game. Now you're stuck in a bloated pot where a pot-sized bet is almost half of your stack, holding exactly the kind of hand you can expect to get with KJ.

Still, you should consider betting here, since the pot is fairly large and only a handful of openers beat you. A couple of those openers (AA and KK) are very unlikely due to prior action, and two (JJ and AJ) are less likely than usual due to your blockers. AK and QT are still possible, with the latter being less likely to have called a 3-bet, but loose players will do their thing.

Beyond the hands that beat you, there's a whole world of hands your opponents could have: any pocket pair, AQ, AT, maybe even smaller (probably suited) aces, and a fair number of other loose-but-playable hands like suited connectors and Broadway combos (which all now have a pair and a gutshot).

A lot of these hands whiffed and will just fold to a bet. This is a very threatening board to any hand that isn't made of Broadway cards. And you want that; no sense in letting any of those draws or underpairs catch free cards that could beat you.

I agree with the sentiment from others that a small bet should do the trick here, but I disagree about some of the amounts I'm seeing. Betting a weak $10 (less than the preflop raise!) into a $40 pot is an invitation for an aggressive player to make an impromptu check-raise. We really need clarification on hand strength here, not ambiguous bets that will be hard to judge.

A bet of $20 should do the trick. It's big enough that it should put draws on the fence about calling and not encourage anyone to make a move, but small enough that you can still escape with ~$60 if V2 raises.

The tough part will be if V1 check-raises. That's the only spot where I'd be legitimately unsure of what to do (and bemoaning the $12 preflop raise). I'd have to draw on my specific experiences with V1, and ideally some kind of body language or other physical tells, to decide whether to call.
 

tabletalker7

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But @DrStrange didn't think 3 betting wasn't a viable alternative.
If you are waiting for me to say three betting with King Jack is a great idea, don't hold your breath. Besides, if you are going to use his advise, use it in total
Fold > 3-bet > call. Even on the button.
You know, Fold being the better alternative.
3 bet squeezing is a very strong play that can result in a lot of free wins. It looks bad in this exact spot because the pot turned out multiway.
3 betting King Jack and getting ONE caller is absolute trouble. Multiway is meaningless here. Add to it the flop that pretends to love you but really loves a ton of hands that are good in a 3 bet situation and you are up a creek here.

so, why you trying to single me out again?
 

Legend5555

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If you are waiting for me to say three betting with King Jack is a great idea, don't hold your breath. Besides, if you are going to use his advise, use it in total

You know, Fold being the better alternative.

3 betting King Jack and getting ONE caller is absolute trouble. Multiway is meaningless here. Add to it the flop that pretends to love you but really loves a ton of hands that are good in a 3 bet situation and you are up a creek here.

so, why you trying to single me out again?
Don't know why you are taking this personally. Just having discussion. Let's just keep this conversation civil. I have my reasoning, we disagree, we can move on.
 

Legend5555

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I was, then I got singled out for not liking what the hero did pre flop. I wanted to know why.
I never said I didn't like your plan. I have just called in similar spots. I just provided my reasons for my plan because it didn't seem like you understood why 3 betting an aggressive range can be a good play. There is plenty of training out there that covers these kinds of spots.

If you want to have a real discussion instead of acting personally offended, then what hands would you 3 bet in this spot pre flop?
 
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