PAHWM - .25/.25 NLHE (1 Viewer)

[Legend5555]

7 handed .25/.25 NLHE. Straddle is on from UTG. We are going to head to flop as preflop other than maybe sizing is uninteresting.

UTG+1 Limps for $0.50
UTG+2 Raises to $1.25 ($29.50 to start)
Folds around to Hero in SB with .
Hero 3bets to $4.50. ($62 to start)
Folds back to UTG+2 who calls.

Hero and UTG+2 have played a good bit together, but mostly in tournaments. Hero is TAG with a solid image. UTG+2 is halfway between loose passive and TAG. Folds stuff like KTo in EP, but limps a decent bit with suited connectors and suited As. Has a fairly straightforward raising range of most pairs (66+ from any pos 8 handed) and stronger suited broadways. But tends to overplay vulnerable made hands post flop to "protect."

Hero discounts AA and QQ as UTG+2 wouldn't play it preflop this way. Would either have opened larger or 4 bet. He would not 4bet AK.

Pot: $10.50
Effective stack: $25

Flop:

Hero?

 

[DerberAlter]

bet/call

if you loose, it’s okay.

I don’t see any problem in getting stacked for 100bb on this board

 

[Beakertwang]

You're only beat by clubs (only Ax, and suited broadways?) and sets. You're only getting value from TT, JJ, A9, 88, maybe some draws. I'd bet $6, and evaluate after villain's action. I'd probably call a re-raise, unless he jams.

 

[Ben8257]

I like the $6 bet also representing a solid hand if he comes overtop... well you know where you stand. Looks like you have the winning hand to me!! But I would run from a re-raise! Interesting to hear the finish!!

 

[DrStrange]

The stacks are too short for much play. $10.5 in pot vs $25 ----> SPR less than three.

Two bets will get to all in, or one if Hero just want's to over-bet jam. I think the over-bet jam is best. Villain's range has a lot of equity from random clubs and random aces - but who wants to stack off on a draw to the ten of clubs - - say for example.

Hero needs to exploit villain's lack of knowledge about how much equity he holds. Villain might even fold hands where he is ahead < assuming he has a raise / call range that shabby.>

Go get 'em tiger -=- DrStrange

 

[Beakertwang]

The stacks are too short for much play. $10.5 in pot vs $25 ----> SPR less than three.

Two bets will get to all in, or one if Hero just want's to over-bet jam. I think the over-bet jam is best. Villain's range has a lot of equity from random clubs and random aces - but who wants to stack off on a draw to the ten of clubs - - say for example.

Hero needs to exploit villain's lack of knowledge about how much equity he holds. Villain might even fold hands where he is ahead < assuming he has a raise / call range that shabby.>

Go get 'em tiger -=- DrStrange

If hero jams, what better hands are folding? 5c6c? TcJc? 44? 77? Doubtful.

What worse hands are calling? TT-QQ?

I guess I don’t understand the logic in putting in a bet that will only get called by hands that crush hero.

 

[DrStrange]

Hero folds out a ton of hands with significant equity if he jams. Hero also might get calls from those same hands - ones where the villain is on the short end of a flip.

All hands with a random club have ~ 35% equity. A hand with the ace of clubs has 45% equity. A hand with a random non-club ace with a lower club has about 42% equity, same thing with a pocket pair plus a club.

Hero is never getting folds from a better hand aside from hands like - pairing the board plus holding a club worth ~52% equity. Hard to give villain hands like that. But hero is getting rid of a lot of hands with 35% to 45% equity or getting calls with favorable odds.

There is certainly merit in trying to milk villain - say bet $7.5 on the flop and then $17.5 on the turn, both ~70% pot. Hero is stacking off unless a club comes on the turn. I would suggest that line if Hero had position.

 

[Rhodeman77]

If hero jams, what better hands are folding? 5c6c? TcJc? 44? 77? Doubtful.

What worse hands are calling? TT-QQ?

I guess I don’t understand the logic in putting in a bet that will only get called by hands that crush hero.

It’s not about getting calls from worse hands, it’s about getting hands that have a lot of equity to fold.

 

[Legend5555]

Continued

UTG+1 Limps for $0.50
UTG+2 Raises to $1.25 ($29.50 to start)
Folds around to Hero in SB with .
Hero 3bets to $4.50. ($62 to start)
Folds back to UTG+2 who calls.

Pot: $10.50
Effective stack: $25

Flop:

Hero gives pause to consider options.

Hero knows UTG+2 range pretty well here (66+, ATs+, AJo+, mayyyyyybe KQs and ATo).

Hero believes UTG+2 just folds all misses (likely even 66 and 88 without a club), no club Ax hands, KQs no club, to any bet.

UTG+2 jams sets. Probably jams overpairs with club, and possibly overpairs w/o club (though much less likely).

Hero is unsure how UTG+2 plays the naked here. Hero assumes UTG+2 occasionally jams, but isn't confident.

Hero bets $5.

Targeting the non-club pairs for value and maybe hands for value. Hero doesn't believe sizing any higher is really necessary as SPR is pretty small, and UTG+2 will play face up on future streets if he calls.

UTG+2 jams for $25.

Pot: $40.50
$20 to call.

Hero?

 

[DrStrange]

fold. Best case Hero is on the fat side of a flip. Worst case hero is drawing dead vs flushes or drawing to two outs + runner runner flushing boards vs a set.

Passive players aren't doing this with air.

 

[APatHand]

Alas sweet kings, we barely knew ye.

 

[Frogzilla]

I like just checking back this flop. Interested in what Pio does if anyone has that. If his range is as you described, mostly suited broadways and pairs, he won’t have many one club hands to eek value from.

As to the postflop jam, it’s pot sized so we can fold half of our range. KK no club is right around there and blocks 2 AKo bluff combos, don’t hate a call but we can probably let it go.

 

[Beakertwang]

@DrStrange @Rhodeman77, Please don't take my questions as challenging either of your knowledge and experience. You both are light years ahead of me, and I have tons of respect for your posts in these strategy threads. I'm trying to wrap my head around a new way of thinking about poker, and sometimes it makes sense to me, and other times it doesn't. It's also possible that I'm asking the wrong questions since my paradigm is wrong in the first place.

Hero folds out a ton of hands with significant equity if he jams. Hero also might get calls from those same hands - ones where the villain is on the short end of a flip.

All hands with a random club have ~ 35% equity. A hand with the ace of clubs has 45% equity. A hand with a random non-club ace with a lower club has about 42% equity, same thing with a pocket pair plus a club.

Hero is never getting folds from a better hand aside from hands like - pairing the board plus holding a club worth ~52% equity. Hard to give villain hands like that. But hero is getting rid of a lot of hands with 35% to 45% equity or getting calls with favorable odds.

There is certainly merit in trying to milk villain - say bet $7.5 on the flop and then $17.5 on the turn, both ~70% pot. Hero is stacking off unless a club comes on the turn. I would suggest that line if Hero had position.

It’s not about getting calls from worse hands, it’s about getting hands that have a lot of equity to fold.

So...

By jamming, hero would be risking $25, hoping to win $10. Villain's range is very wide, much wider than hero's. If villain whiffed on the flop, $6-8 will fold him out. Sure, he may chase his draws, but don't we want him to? Help me understand why folding out 35-45% equity with a 2.5x pot bet is profitable over the long run.

 

[Legend5555]

Result

Hero calls and loses to set of 9s.

I knew it was close. I have a lot of history and knowing the types of hands he jams for value/protection tilted me toward calling. He would never jam the nut flush. While I generally discounted QQ, it's not impossible for him to have that here. And I thought he would do the same with TT, JJ, and sometimes with AcJx, AcQx, AcKx. Getting 2 to 1 and having 3 bet large enough pre to fairly closely deny the right set odds, I sort of flipped a mental coin and just went with it. I checked the equity against the tightest range I thought he could have (TcTx, JcJx, 99, 77, KcQc) and I'm 45%. And I'm not even 100% sure he calls pre with KQs. So I don't feel horrible about it.

 

[Rhodeman77]

@DrStrange @Rhodeman77, Please don't take my questions as challenging either of your knowledge and experience. You both are light years ahead of me, and I have tons of respect for your posts in these strategy threads. I'm trying to wrap my head around a new way of thinking about poker, and sometimes it makes sense to me, and other times it doesn't. It's also possible that I'm asking the wrong questions since my paradigm is wrong in the first place.




So...

By jamming, hero would be risking $25, hoping to win $10. Villain's range is very wide, much wider than hero's. If villain whiffed on the flop, $6-8 will fold him out. Sure, he may chase his draws, but don't we want him to? Help me understand why folding out 35-45% equity with a 2.5x pot bet is profitable over the long run.

If we only bet $5 or so here we are giving a very good price to all the hands that have a club and an Ace or a club and a pair of some kind. By over betting we like a call by those hands because now they AREN’T getting the right price to call. And if we get them to fold those hands that have all that equity even better as we now win 100% of the pot.

 

[Frogzilla]

Help me understand why folding out 35-45% equity with a 2.5x pot bet is profitable over the long run.

Don’t listen to this advice. It’s terrible. Two fundamentals concepts: card removal & polariziation.

Card removal: any card you have your opponent doesn’t. You have a weak hand, more likely he has strong. You have strong, villain more likely to be weak. Some times card removal is more important than others. If there are a lot of card removal effects at play, have to size down. Card removal effects are amplified on monotone boards, paired boards, etc. So this is a bad board in general to have an overbet range.

Polarization: large bets should be either really good or really weak. You don’t want a large bet that only gets called by better hands. Flop it’s more complicated as you don’t have perfectly weak or strong hands (what is JT one club on this board?) but the same polarization concepts roughly apply, and KK is too mediocre for an overbet.

 

[Eriks]

I know you said skip preflop, but I can’t because I think it matters too much, sorry:

Sb+bb+straddle+limp+pfr 0.25+0.25+0.5+0.5+1.25=2.75 in the pot.
As played he only has to call 3.25 to win 7.

I would make it more like $ 5.5-6.5 to deny odds and to compensate for being out of position. Let say we make 6, he calls. Now the pot is 13.25 and effective stacks are 23.50. Slam dunk bet/call. Which I still think it is as played but with a larger 3-bet sizing he’s certainly making a mistake pre when calling with 77 or 44.

I don’t really understand the logic behind over shoving. He can’t really call with naked Ac right? And he might be reluctant to continue even with JJ or QQ with no clubs.

 

[Legend5555]

I know you said skip preflop, but I can’t because I think it matters too much, sorry:

Sb+bb+straddle+limp+pfr 0.25+0.25+0.5+0.5+1.25=2.75 in the pot.
As played he only has to call 3.25 to win 7.

I would make it more like $ 5.5-6.5 to deny odds and to compensate for being out of position. Let say we make 6, he calls. Now the pot is 13.25 and effective stacks are 23.50. Slam dunk bet/call. Which I still think it is as played but with a larger 3-bet sizing he’s certainly making a mistake pre when calling with 77 or 44.

I don’t really understand the logic behind over shoving. He can’t really call with naked Ac right? And he might be reluctant to continue even with JJ or QQ with no clubs.

Did you notice in said in the OP that preflop "other than sizing" isn't interesting? I know exactly what you are saying. And I considered raising larger. But given the stack sizes and pot size, I wasn't sure raising larger was entirely warranted. It's easy in hindsight given the flop board texture to say raising larger was correct as it makes bet calling easier. But against this player's entire range I don't think raising larger than approximately pot is completely necessary.

 

[Eriks]

No, I did notice hence the:

”I know you said skip preflop, but I can’t because I think it matters too much, sorry”

I wasn’t trying to be results oriented. I think 3-betting larger oop usually makes sense. As this was a straddled pot, making effective stacks just shy of 60bbs, (perhaps this fact also makes the smaller 3-bet size best) I don’t think it’s much of a decision postflop. I would play it for a bet/call as well.

But I hear you, I won’t comment further on pf. Peace