PAHWM - .25/.25 NL Hand with TPTK

Legend5555

3 of a Kind
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
522
Reaction score
566
Location
Georgia
.25/.25 blinds cash game, 9 handed. Villain in hand is in the Hijack. Don't know much, but has been tight aggressive. Has built up to $48 from $25 without showdowns.

Folds to Hero in UTG+3 with :ah::jh:, sitting on $24.75.

Hero: Raise to $0.75
Villain: Call
BB: Call (weak passive on $13)

Pot: $2.50
Flop::7c::9c::jd:

BB: Checks

Hero?
 

Pesto628

3 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
678
Reaction score
865
Location
Denver
So HJ limped in? This is a pretty wet board with a lot of turns that will stomp on your action. I definitely wouldn’t want to be playing a big pot here. We also have no blockers to any flush or straight draws. This is probably a spot where you mix checking and betting around $1.
 

Legend5555

3 of a Kind
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
522
Reaction score
566
Location
Georgia
So HJ limped in? This is a pretty wet board with a lot of turns that will stomp on your action. I definitely wouldn’t want to be playing a big pot here. We also have no blockers to any flush or straight draws. This is probably a spot where you mix checking and betting around $1.
No HJ (the villain) called the hero open raise to .75.
 

Pesto628

3 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
678
Reaction score
865
Location
Denver
Right. I’m so used to playing 6 max online that I was thinking HJ was immediately to the right of UTG. With Villain in position here, I’d say this is around 50/50 to check/bet around 1/3 pot.
 

waddadonk

Two Pair
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
390
Reaction score
380
Location
NJ
.25/.25 blinds cash game, 9 handed. Villain in hand is in the Hijack. Don't know much, but has been tight aggressive. Has built up to $48 from $25 without showdowns.

Folds to Hero in UTG+3 with :ah::jh:, sitting on $24.75.

Hero: Raise to $0.75
Villain: Call
BB: Call (weak passive on $13)

Pot: $2.50
Flop::7c::9c::jd:

BB: Checks

Hero?
Hero bets 2 to 2.50 and may 3 bet/get it in vs villains aggression. Hero slows down a little if BB calls and draws start to fill in, but continues to fire if draws miss and we have position.

If both just call our flop bet ... we groan.
 

Legend5555

3 of a Kind
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
522
Reaction score
566
Location
Georgia
Continued...

.25/.25 blinds cash game, 9 handed. Villain in hand is in the Hijack. Don't know much, but has been tight aggressive. Has built up to $48 from $25 without showdowns.

Folds to Hero in UTG+3 with :ah::jh:, sitting on $24.75.

Hero: Raise to $0.75
Villain: Call
BB: Call (weak passive on $13)

Pot: $2.50
Flop::7c::9c::jd:

BB: Checks
Hero: Bets $1.50 (22.50 behind)
Villain: Raises to $5.00 (covers)
BB: Folds

Pot: $9.00

Hero?
What is a general range for villain?
 

Pesto628

3 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
678
Reaction score
865
Location
Denver
I would say this is a pretty easy fold OOP.

Villains range is probably something like 108ss, A2cc+, Q10ss, J10cc+, 77, 99, J9ss, K10cc+

You are also not at the top of your range as you can still have all the sets, AJcc, QQ+ in this spot that can call here

If you call and the turn bricks, how confident are you that you have the best hand after he fires another barrel? What if the turn is a scary card, which is about half the deck, how confident are you at that point?
 

sem0030

Two Pair
Joined
Oct 10, 2018
Messages
276
Reaction score
277
Location
Alabama
I'd lay it down. Do not want to be committing any more chips in this position with that board. Almost all turn cards would be bad.
 

waddadonk

Two Pair
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
390
Reaction score
380
Location
NJ
Continued...

.25/.25 blinds cash game, 9 handed. Villain in hand is in the Hijack. Don't know much, but has been tight aggressive. Has built up to $48 from $25 without showdowns.

Folds to Hero in UTG+3 with :ah::jh:, sitting on $24.75.

Hero: Raise to $0.75
Villain: Call
BB: Call (weak passive on $13)

Pot: $2.50
Flop::7c::9c::jd:

BB: Checks
Hero: Bets $1.50 (22.50 behind)
Villain: Raises to $5.00 (covers)
BB: Folds

Pot: $9.00

Hero?
What is a general range for villain?
Lots of flush draws or pair+gutshot, two pairs, made straight unlikely JJs/99s, maybe 77s. Your range could look the same to him, so there's a chance he could call off with a worse pair+gutshot or FD.
Any other raise size from you than a ship will leave your stack size in a weird spot, so for me .... All In > Fold >>>>>>> Call
Wouldn't mind finally seeing some cards from the guy to start taking some mental notes. For the villain, doubling up without showing down could mean a heater or really well timed aggression, which this board favors for him.
 

Legend5555

3 of a Kind
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
522
Reaction score
566
Location
Georgia
Continued...
Rationale for my play will be provided at the conclusion.

.25/.25 blinds cash game, 9 handed. Villain in hand is in the Hijack. Don't know much, but has been tight aggressive. Has built up to $48 from $25 without showdowns.

Folds to Hero in UTG+3 with :ah::jh:, sitting on $24.75.

Hero: Raise to $0.75
Villain: Call
BB: Call (weak passive on $13)

Pot: $2.50
Flop::7c::9c::jd:

BB: Checks
Hero: Bets $1.50 (22.50 behind)
Villain: Raises to $5.00 (covers)
BB: Folds
Hero: Calls

Pot: $12.50
Turn: :7c::9c::jd::2h:

Hero: Checks ($19 behind)
Villain: Bets $6.50 (covers)

Hero?
 

Pesto628

3 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
678
Reaction score
865
Location
Denver
Well I guess if you called the flop raise then you can't fold to this turn bet. Villains sizing is a little weird here imo.
 

Legend5555

3 of a Kind
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
522
Reaction score
566
Location
Georgia
Conclusion

.25/.25 blinds cash game, 9 handed. Villain in hand is in the Hijack. Don't know much, but has been tight aggressive. Has built up to $48 from $25 without showdowns.

Folds to Hero in UTG+3 with :ah::jh:, sitting on $24.75.

Hero: Raise to $0.75
Villain: Call
BB: Call (weak passive on $13)

Pot: $2.50
Flop::7c::9c::jd:

BB: Checks
Hero: Bets $1.50 (22.50 behind)
Villain: Raises to $5.00 (covers)
BB: Folds
Hero: Calls

Pot: $12.50
Turn: :7c::9c::jd::2h:

Hero: Checks ($19 behind)
Villain: Bets $6.50 (covers)
Hero: Jams
Villain: Snap calls with :ac::tc:

River: :7c::9c::jd::2h::6s:

Will follow up with my analysis later. About to be driving for a while.[/QUOTE]
 

Legend5555

3 of a Kind
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
522
Reaction score
566
Location
Georgia
Preflop is standard.

Flop, I wish I had bet a little larger. But this is a spot where I sometimes check and sometimes bet as my range pre is something like T9s, J9s+, all suited boardway, all pairs, and occasionally 76s, 87s, 98s, 97s, 86s. I'm generally betting all TP, sets, two pair, draws, pairs + gutter. But I think betting this texture larger would have been better. It's important to note that not having any clubs is actually good for me here as it means he has more bluffs in his range.

After the raise, I'm never folding TP. As a matter of fact, TPTK here is better than QQ or KK because I don't block some of his bluffs and weaker TP+flush draw. You just can't make a habit of folding TPTK to a flop raise on a wet board. If you only ever call with made hands and big draws, then you aren't balancing well. The relative strength of QQ+ and AJ here are close, with only suits and blockers making a difference. And AJhh blocks JJ and doesn't block him from having flush draws. Plus it blocks some 2 pair combos. There is only 1 combo of J9 he can have (spades), and he basically can't have JJ.

So he is repping 77, 99, combo draws, AcJc, Ace high flush draws, flopped straight, and possibly 97s. Though in general, I think he has less T8s and 97s than the other stuff. Suited 1 gappers just don't show up as often as connectors. Now I checked this afterwards, and against that range i'm 61%. In the moment obviously don't know that. But i'm not just folding TPTK when there are that many draws in my opponents range. I don't really want to jam as he will fold most of the hands I can get value from. What I didn't really look at enough at the time was how awkward the stack was going to be on the turn. But either way, raising back seems like an overplay. So the plan was call or jam on turns based on bet size (before I noticed the awkward size).

On turn I think I just have to check. If I bet the turn now, then why not raise the flop? Possibly because his presumed equity has gone down and he may take a free card, but it's hard to balance leading on the turn. He bets a super awkward size, as I mostly expected a check or an overjam. With such a safe card, and all the draws still in his range, I jam as it gives him an awkward price where just calling with naked flush draws isn't profitable (just barely). Calling with combo draws is still profitable, but now we have much better equity than we did on the flop. And if I run into a made hand, oh well. That's the problem with draw heavy boards sometimes.

If the turn had completed the flush and he bets, I likely fold. If it comes a T it's close, as I think he doesn't have many 8s, so I'd really just have to think he has KQcc. If it comes an 8, then I likely fold as there are way more Ts in his range.
 

waddadonk

Two Pair
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
390
Reaction score
380
Location
NJ
I'm generally betting all TP, sets, two pair, draws, pairs + gutter.

So he is repping 77, 99, combo draws, AcJc, Ace high flush draws, flopped straight, and possibly 97s. Though in general, I think he has less T8s and 97s than the other stuff. Suited 1 gappers just don't show up as often as connectors. Now I checked this afterwards, and against that range i'm 61%. In the moment obviously don't know that. But i'm not just folding TPTK when there are that many draws in my opponents range.

I don't really want to jam as he will fold most of the hands I can get value from.
Hmmm ... the flop flat seems so iffy. If a turn 7 (3x), 8 (4x), 9 (3x), T (4x), Q (4x), K (4x), remaining clubs (2-6,J,A = 7x) means that 29 cards out of the remaining unseen 47 seem bad for us and we set ourselves up to be bluffed off a lot. You can make hero moves vs a Q or K, but the rest...yikes
 

Legend5555

3 of a Kind
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
522
Reaction score
566
Location
Georgia
Hmmm ... the flop flat seems so iffy. If a turn 7 (3x), 8 (4x), 9 (3x), T (4x), Q (4x), K (4x), remaining clubs (2-6,J,A = 7x) means that 29 cards out of the remaining unseen 47 seem bad for us and we set ourselves up to be bluffed off a lot. You can make hero moves vs a Q or K, but the rest...yikes
Yep, but again, can't just told TPTK against a draw heavy range. They aren't always going to barrel the turn. Why would I be worried about a 7 or a 9? Those are great cards for me. And I laid out my reasoning as to why I don't think a T is that bad either.
 

waddadonk

Two Pair
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
390
Reaction score
380
Location
NJ
Yep, but again, can't just told TPTK against a draw heavy range. They aren't always going to barrel the turn. Why would I be worried about a 7 or a 9? Those are great cards for me. And I laid out my reasoning as to why I don't think a T is that bad either.
Do you have a way of calculating the minimum calling range needed from your opponent to make a jam profitable on the flop?
 

Legend5555

3 of a Kind
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
522
Reaction score
566
Location
Georgia
Do you have a way of calculating the minimum calling range needed from your opponent to make a jam profitable on the flop?
I could work it out. I don't have a solver or anything though, so it would take me a bit with Excel to do it.
 

Pesto628

3 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
678
Reaction score
865
Location
Denver
I have a solver btw and will do it in a sec, but I'm running the ranges through equilab.

So far I'm interested what ranges you put in for him. On the flop before any betting I have us at a 50/50 range split. Given we're OOP, we are at a higher disadvantage. I still think a mix of checking and betting is the right move but I'm curious what the solver thinks. I'll give it the option to do multiple bet sizes as well.

After the betting, based on the betting range you provided and the hands we can put him on, we are at a massive disadvantage with AhJh; 61% to 38% in favor of V

Here is the range I plugged in for V: 99,77,J9s,T8s+,97s+,87s,KcQc,AcJc,KcJc,QcJc,AcTc,QcTc,JcTc,Ac9c,Ac8c,Ac7c,Ac6c,Ac5c,Ac4c,Ac3c,Ac2c

I also think he doesn't call pre-flop with all suited Aces, which puts us at an even larger disadvantage equity wise. Additionally, people tend to play a little more straightforward multi-way, so I think the BB still being in the hand makes his raise look even stronger.

I'll run this through a solver and see what it says
 

Pesto628

3 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
678
Reaction score
865
Location
Denver
So I put this in the Solver: Says you should be checking AhJh most of the time and when you bet it should be larger, like a pot sized bet. You should be folding on the flop to the raise with this hand according to the Solver and as played you should call the turn bet.
 

waddadonk

Two Pair
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
390
Reaction score
380
Location
NJ
So I put this in the Solver: Says you should be checking AhJh most of the time and when you bet it should be larger, like a pot sized bet. You should be folding on the flop to the raise with this hand according to the Solver and as played you should call the turn bet.
If you put in a pot sized flop bet and get raised, its fold 100%?
 

Pesto628

3 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
678
Reaction score
865
Location
Denver
Good to know. Did you use my entire range as I outlined earlier?
For the solver

Your Range: AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT,99,88,77,66,55,44,33,22,AK,AQ,AJ,AT,KQ,KJ,KTs,QJ,QTs,JTs,T9s,98s,87s
V's Range: TT,99,88,77,66,55,44,33,22,AQo,AJ,AT,A9s,A8s,A7s,A6s,A5s,A4s,A3s,A2s,KQ,KJ,KTs,QJ,QTs,JTs,J9s,T9s,T8s,98s,97s
 

Pesto628

3 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2018
Messages
678
Reaction score
865
Location
Denver
If you put in a pot sized flop bet and get raised, its fold 100%?
For a pot sized bet vs. a raise, solver says you should be folding 100% of the time with AhJh

EV Folding: 0.00
EV Calling: -5
EV Raising: around -9
 

waddadonk

Two Pair
Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2019
Messages
390
Reaction score
380
Location
NJ
For a pot sized bet vs. a raise, solver says you should be folding 100% of the time with AhJh

EV Folding: 0.00
EV Calling: -5
EV Raising: around -9
Thats cool, thanks. In order to make myself feel better, I'll say that anything I posted above is purely exploitative and non-GTO :p
 

JMC9389

Straight
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Messages
939
Reaction score
1,118
Location
NJ
Me? I would have laid it down after the flop. A really tight, nitty, OMC type player is repping a straight draw, or two pair off the flop with a little more than a half pot bet. I wouldn't place him at pocket rockets or JJ, QQ, or KK because a tight player would bet pot there.

Now, after seeing villain's bet sizing after the turn, if I had called after the flop, I would have re-raised him and made him pay to see the river after seeing the brick on the turn. If they three bet there, I probably lay down thinking that they have the straight. To answer your question, I would range on having an open ended straight draw or flush draw.

Shoving on the river was the right call, IMO. Why did the villain snap call? Really reckless, IMO.
 

v1pe

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2017
Messages
3,111
Reaction score
2,626
Location
Oregon
Me? I would have laid it down after the flop. A really tight, nitty, OMC type player is repping a straight draw, or two pair off the flop with a little more than a half pot bet. I wouldn't place him at pocket rockets or JJ, QQ, or KK because a tight player would bet pot there.

Now, after seeing villain's bet sizing after the turn, if I had called after the flop, I would have re-raised him and made him pay to see the river after seeing the brick on the turn. If they three bet there, I probably lay down thinking that they have the straight. To answer your question, I would range on having an open ended straight draw or flush draw.

Shoving on the river was the right call, IMO. Why did the villain snap call? Really reckless, IMO.
Hero check/raise-jammed the turn, not the river.

You played the hand just about perfectly I think. Raise on the flop could be plenty of strong draws and your hand is too strong to fold. Check/raise the turn might be a little ambitious with only TPTK, but you probably won the maximum. I would probably look to check/call blank turns and hope that river blanks and villain still has a bluffing range to fire.
 

JMC9389

Straight
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Messages
939
Reaction score
1,118
Location
NJ
Hero check/raise-jammed the turn, not the river.

You played the hand just about perfectly I think. Raise on the flop could be plenty of strong draws and your hand is too strong to fold. Check/raise the turn might be a little ambitious with only TPTK, but you probably won the maximum. I would probably look to check/call blank turns and hope that river blanks and villain still has a bluffing range to fire.
Correct, I misread it. Jamming there isn't a bad decision. Hero can be representing a lot of hands there as well.
 

Legend5555

3 of a Kind
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
522
Reaction score
566
Location
Georgia
Hero check/raise-jammed the turn, not the river.

You played the hand just about perfectly I think. Raise on the flop could be plenty of strong draws and your hand is too strong to fold. Check/raise the turn might be a little ambitious with only TPTK, but you probably won the maximum. I would probably look to check/call blank turns and hope that river blanks and villain still has a bluffing range to fire.
Calling down was my intention, but when I realized how awkward the pot and stack sizes were on the turn, and that I'd be getting 3 to 1 on a river call and thus likely not folding very often, I decided to just go ahead and jam turn to maximize my equity against the draws. Definitely not a play I make that often with TPTK.

Apparently a solver says this isn't balanced (not really surprised), but I don't play so often against the same people that I'm overly concerned with being balanced all the time. And I did what I thought was best in the moment even though I knew there was a good chance I was overplaying my hand in this scenario.

Still a bit surprised that a solver says to fold TPTK to a flop raise against such a draw heavy range. I would sooner fold QQ or KK than AJ, since QQ and KK block some of my opponents bluffs. But something to learn from almost every hand.
 
Top Bottom