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Frogzilla

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I’ll offer a hand from last night up for some MMQB. This is at the $0.50 / $1.00 NLHE windy. See the windy crest thread for info if you want to join in, there are several PCF’ers in the mix.

Villains in this room range from skilled TAG, to raise any two LAGS, to stations, to ultra-passive never raise unless it’s Aces, and everything in between. Hero’s image is very LAG and has close to 40% VPIP. The SB (main villain) is a PLO crusher, not sure how skilled at NLHE. Our opens have been getting squeezed frequently by this villain

At this point in the evening we are quite deep and 7 handed. Most stacks are $150-400, hero covers.
UTG folds to hero and hero looks down at :2d::2c:
 

Legend5555

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I could make a case for just folding as the reverse implied odds when super deep are very real, you are very unlikely in this game to get a raise through and just win the blinds, and you have a squeeze happy player.

Though, hitting the set against the right villain can still get you all the monies.

So, I'd probably both fold and raise with some frequency. Fold more often though.

Edit: missed the villain position. This would up my raise % a bit.
 

Coyote

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I 'd fold 100% small pairs up front, with @Rhodeman77 waiting behind:LOL: :laugh:, even if I would have had position in relation to him, in the next betting rounds.:)
 

Frogzilla

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You can’t get a 40% VPIP folding your pockets pre.

.50/$1 NLHE

Preflop
UTG ($60) folds
Hero ($600) opens to $3
HJ ($400) folds
CO ($200) calls
Passive BU ($150) calls.
TAG SB ($200) raises to $17
BB ($250) folds
Hero?
 

Legend5555

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You can’t get a 40% VPIP folding your pockets pre.

.50/$1 NLHE

Preflop
UTG folds
Hero ($600) opens to $3
HJ ($400) folds
CO ($200) calls
Passive BU ($150) calls.
TAG SB ($200) raises to $17
BB ($250) folds
Hero?
Not ideal with someone calling in-between. But I don't think there is any reason to fear a back raise, and with a raise to 17 the spr will be low enough to play this a little easier. Plus there is more than 10x the bet size behind, so set mining seems appropriate.

Call.
 

CraigT78

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As played, fold pre. You don't have position.

Call the flop bet.
 

DrStrange

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Hero can reasonably take all three options ( fold, limp, raise ) depending on the table.

Hero might fold if the table is aggressive, punishing the limpers. More so if the villains are careful enough not to get in too much trouble playing top pair vs bottom set. Basically, the better the table the less I want to play this hand from early position.

Hero might raise if needed to disguise his hand. There aren't a lot of good reasons to raise if you aren't trying to fool the table. I'd need to be somewhat sure I am better than the villains to take this line. If the villains are aggressive and more skilled, better to fold.

My default line would be open limp. The stacks are deep. The villains might stack off with top pair if Hero flops a set. The table is way too sticky to try to turn a whiffed flop into a bluff. The less I fear the table, the more I want to limp.

Absent table considerations - limp > fold > raise.

DrStrange
 

Legend5555

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Hero can reasonably take all three options ( fold, limp, raise ) depending on the table.

Hero might fold if the table is aggressive, punishing the limpers. More so if the villains are careful enough not to get in too much trouble playing top pair vs bottom set. Basically, the better the table the less I want to play this hand from early position.

Hero might raise if needed to disguise his hand. There aren't a lot of good reasons to raise if you aren't trying to fool the table. I'd need to be somewhat sure I am better than the villains to take this line. If the villains are aggressive and more skilled, better to fold.

My default line would be open limp. The stacks are deep. The villains might stack off with top pair if Hero flops a set. The table is way too sticky to try to turn a whiffed flop into a bluff. The less I fear the table, the more I want to limp.

Absent table considerations - limp > fold > raise.

DrStrange
Open limp? Really?

That's just not a play I can almost every advocate for. Even LESS so when stacks are deeper. You have to build a pot to win a big pot. Open limping small pairs just allows too much other stuff to come in behind you. If the game is passive and call happy, and the stacks aren't 200+bb deep, then I can possibly see a case for it.

But with deep stacks, almost nothing good comes from playing small pairs from up front unless the lineup is really good. Which is why I advocates for just folding. At least by raising you lower the SPR and can make a better case for stacking off when you flop a set. But bottom sets in large SPR situations can end up really sucking.
 

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I like raising here, trying to isolate SB with position. The raise, 4-bet combo looks very strong and it will likely fold around to SB, who will be put to the test.
 
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ninedeuce

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22 UTG six handed (effectively, since actual UTG folded) is a spot I'm pretty indifferent to how I open. Limping is not really part of my opening repertoire, but good reasons for a raise (thin the field, deception, cover for your raises with premiums in EP) or a fold (trying to realize value when I hit a set is tough for me OOP, and being OOP makes it more difficult to run bluffs).

As played, in the moment, I probably rationalize a call here due to likelihood of button call and unlikelihood of button raise. Because I'm an optimistic fish who just has to see a flop :) Our hand is relatively straightforward to play post flop, fit or fold. Of course, we're toast if one or both villains hit sets :)

Thinking everything through, I think a raise or fold might make more sense for the reasons I listed at the top. A raise/4bet line from EP looks very strong, will likely get us HU vs SB (if not get him to fold, a good result for 22). It also gives us position to run bluffs, and an easy fold if we get 5bet. It also gives us nice cover for when we have AA/KK in the same spot.

If we don't raise and just call, we're now OOP and can only continue if we hit a set (12.5% of the time). Just feel like we will have a hard time actually realizing enough to overcome the $14 we throw away 87.5% of the time, and so a fold makes more sense than a call.
 

Rhodeman77

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22 UTG six handed (effectively, since actual UTG folded) is a spot I'm pretty indifferent to how I open. Limping is not really part of my opening repertoire, but good reasons for a raise (thin the field, deception, cover for your raises with premiums in EP) or a fold (trying to realize value when I hit a set is tough for me OOP, and being OOP makes it more difficult to run bluffs).

As played, in the moment, I probably rationalize a call here due to likelihood of button call and unlikelihood of button raise. Because I'm an optimistic fish who just has to see a flop :) Our hand is relatively straightforward to play post flop, fit or fold. Of course, we're toast if one or both villains hit sets :)

Thinking everything through, I think a raise or fold might make more sense for the reasons I listed at the top. A raise/4bet line from EP looks very strong, will likely get us HU vs SB (if not get him to fold, a good result for 22). It also gives us position to run bluffs, and an easy fold if we get 5bet. It also gives us nice cover for when we have AA/KK in the same spot.

If we don't raise and just call, we're now OOP and can only continue if we hit a set (12.5% of the time). Just feel like we will have a hard time actually realizing enough to overcome the $14 we throw away 87.5% of the time, and so a fold makes more sense than a call.

If Hero can isolate SB (me) he will have position for the rest of the hand though.
Flatting may entice the CO & Button to come along.

So is gaining position more valuable or go for set mining and possibly bring 2 more players along for the ride?
 

Frogzilla

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This was the 3rd time SB squeezed Hero’s open from the blinds. Hero was forces to fold out :2s::4s: and:8d::tc: preflop, but at some point this madness must end. Tough to 4 bet dueces and feel good about it the morning after, so call it is.

.50/$1 NLHE

Preflop
UTG ($60) folds
Hero :2d::2c: ($600) opens to $3
HJ ($400) folds
CO ($200) calls
Passive BU ($150) calls.
TAG SB ($200) raises to $17
BB ($250) folds
Hero calls.
CU folds.
BU folds.

Flop (2 players, $41, $183 effective)
:kc::kh::js:
SB checks
Hero?
 
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ninedeuce

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How do you do anything but fold? :)

Maybe if villain was a maniac you could find a call. This board seems to hit villain's range pretty well.
 

Rhodeman77

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This was the 3rd time SB squeezed Hero’s open from the blinds. Hero was forces to fold out :2s::4s: and:8d::tc: preflop, but at some point this madness must end. Tough to 4 bet dueces and feel good about it the morning after, so call it is.

.50/$1 NLHE

Preflop
UTG ($60) folds
Hero :2d::2c: ($600) opens to $3
HJ ($400) folds
CO ($200) calls
Passive BU ($150) calls.
TAG SB ($200) raises to $17
BB ($250) folds
Hero calls.
CU folds.
BU folds.

Flop (2 players, $41, $183 effective)
:kc::js::3h:
SB bets $25
Hero?

I thought the flop was KKJ?
 

Rhodeman77

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How do you do anything but fold? :)

Maybe if villain was a maniac you could find a call. This board seems to hit villain's range pretty well.

flop is fixed to correct action if you care to weigh in.
 

ninedeuce

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flop is fixed to correct action if you care to weigh in.

When aggressive players check on a board that ought to hit their range hard, I get suspicious.

I called to set mine, and my opponent is graciously giving me another opportunity to do so. So I'd call.

But given the villain, the action and the board, I'm not going to love this board even if I spike a 2 and make my boat.

BTW villain is described as a TAG and not a LAG, but hero also commented that his squeezes are getting out of line. I'm assuming villain is a true TAG here and mostly likely to be squeezing for value preflop.
 

Frogzilla

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Ok so we have corrected the flop, apologies here

I’m not so sure SB has the range advantage on the KKJ flop. SB has the only KK combo, but there is only one, and I think my open/call range has plenty of KJ (including off suit) at some frequency. We also have way more Jx so this board may actually favor us. Most turns bring a 3rd overcard , so I decided to throw in a cbet to try and take it down on the flop


.50/$1 NLHE

Preflop
UTG ($60) folds
Hero :2d::2c: ($600) opens to $3
HJ ($400) folds
CO ($200) calls
Passive BU ($150) calls.
TAG SB ($260) raises to $17
BB ($250) folds
Hero calls.
CU folds.
BU folds.

Flop (2 players, $41, $243 effective)
:kc::kh::js:
SB checks
Hero bets $25
SB calls

Turn ($91, $218 effective)
:kc::kh::js: :3c:
SB checks
Hero?
 

Rhodeman77

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What range does Hero put SB on? Are you betting to try to get SB to fold a PP under Jacks but that obviously still beat 2’s? AQ and A10 are the only real non pair hands Hero is ahead of that should be in SB continuing range and they both have decent equity.
 

ninedeuce

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I’m not so sure SB has the range advantage on the KKJ flop. SB has the only KK combo, but there is only one, and I think my open/call range has plenty of KJ (including off suit) at some frequency. We also have way more Jx so this board may actually favor us. Most turns bring a 3rd overcard , so I decided to throw in a cbet to try and take it down on the flop

The reasons I feel like SB has the range advantage:

1. LAG hero's opening range in this spot is pretty wide, but flatting SB's 3bet capped it. There are certainly K and J combos, but unlikely KK, JJ, or AK (not to mention AA or QQ).
2. TAG villain's opening range in this spot is more top heavy, and is uncapped. Even if SB is squeezing as a bluff here, good candidates are Ax or Kx hands with blockers.
 

ninedeuce

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As played, on the turn, I check behind here, and might call if a non-broadway lands on the river. Donking AQ or AT on a KKJxx river after hero's shown weakness is in a TAG's repertoire, but my problem here is that 22 is such a weak bluff catcher in this spot. I.e., getting value owned when SB "bluffs" on the river with 77.
 

Legend5555

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I'm trying to figure out if you really have a range advantage here. Let's assume your opening/calling range is...
Screenshot_20200709-093938_Holdem Lab.jpg


And that his 3-betting range is...
Screenshot_20200709-094006_Holdem Lab.jpg


Now they may be even wider, especially your opening range (to include suited connectors). But when with these, the equity is close to even, though not in your favor.
Screenshot_20200709-094026_Holdem Lab.jpg
 
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