PAHWM - $0.50/$1

ninedeuce

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Online private group, extension of live group that had been playing monthly for last year pre-Covid. Group plays pretty much every night since late March. Mostly software developers, young guys in mid to late 20s. Everyone is very familiar with each other. Skill level varies widely, with the seriously losing players either trying to run big bluffs too often, or calling off their stack with just TPTK.

Don't remember exact stack sizes, but we were all close to $200 (200bb).

Play is six handed for this hand. Folds to CO who raises to $3. CO is relatively passive, often runs ill advised bluffs, and is not super positionally aware. He's a losing player in our group to the tune of $10k since we started playing.

I'm on the button with :9h::8h:. SB and BB are winning players.

What should hero do?
 

LotsOfChips

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I'm not super knowledgeable, but I would think that middle suited connectors seem to be best played multi-handed, and that you would want to see the flop as cheaply as possible before committing a ton of cash. I would probably call. But I would also probably not take advice from me.
 

Schmendr1ck

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I can get behind a small 3-bet (say $7) to take control of the hand if you can get it past the blinds (or if you expect a squeeze from them when you flat). Otherwise flat and see a flop in position. Instamuck if you 3b and CO raises.

Also for the record, software developers are terrible poker players.
 

BonScot

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William Wallace wouldn't have folded 98s.
You’re right enough :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:
CC1A8CC2-AC22-4A66-8F28-41E6D7D3652F.jpeg
 

DrStrange

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Hero will have position later in the hand. The key questions for me are these:

Does Hero benefit from deception, enough to justify a 3-bet? If this is an on-going home game villain line up, the answer could be yes. Though Hero's flatting range from the button is likely very wide.

Is it worth inflating the pot to isolate the original raiser? This would be a 3-bet/fold line. Does Hero have post flop fold equity? Does hero expect CO to be able to fold a pocket pair to post flop aggression?

I think Hero can profit by calling the preflop raise. But a 3-bet offers a number of options at the cost of raising the variation and the obvious cost of the semi-bluff.

I choose the passive line unless there is a good reason to 3-bet. Hero's hand is well suited for a high SPR multiway pot. Let's try and get that outcome.

DrStrange
 

ninedeuce

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I can get behind a small 3-bet (say $7) to take control of the hand if you can get it past the blinds (or if you expect a squeeze from them when you flat). Otherwise flat and see a flop in position. Instamuck if you 3b and CO raises.

This was pretty much my thinking.

Also for the record, software developers are terrible poker players.

A few of them in this group are truly terrible lol, but some are quite tough.


Hero will have position later in the hand. The key questions for me are these:

Does Hero benefit from deception, enough to justify a 3-bet? If this is an on-going home game villain line up, the answer could be yes. Though Hero's flatting range from the button is likely very wide.

It's an ongoing home game.

Is it worth inflating the pot to isolate the original raiser? This would be a 3-bet/fold line. Does Hero have post flop fold equity? Does hero expect CO to be able to fold a pocket pair to post flop aggression?

CO mostly fit/fold, will stick around with any piece/good draw or better. CO would fold 77 to a cbet on an AJ5 flop. But wouldn't fold JTo to a cbet on an AJ5 flop. Hero has some post flop fold equity, but not a ton.
 

ninedeuce

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Thanks for everyone's responses! Honestly think the analysis I see on PCF is often better articulated than on 2+2 :)

Continuing on with the hand...

I 3bet to $9, mostly to isolate the CO, but also to reduce the likelihood being coolered by non-nut heart draws if the flush comes in. Nobody in our league would fold :ah::3h: (or :kh::qh:) to a 3bet, but it'll get :jh::5h: to fold in the bb (whereas a lot of folks call single raises with suited junk).

SB folds, BB cold calls and CO calls. Pot is $27.50. We each have $191 behind.

Flop comes :jd::td::7d:, giving me the nut straight, but on an obviously scary flush-y board.

Action checks to me.

What should hero do?
 

DrStrange

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Bet $15 planning to fold to a check raise. This isn't going to clear out "good" flush draws, but maybe the weaker draws will go away. There is no reason to invite bluffing / aggression by checking the flop. Hero's range includes the nut flush / top and middle set / nut flush draw. No reason not to take a stab.

I am considering a free card play if the opportunity comes on the turn. Hero should go to check / fold mode on a 4th diamond.

DrStrange
 

BonScot

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Thanks for everyone's responses! Honestly think the analysis I see on PCF is often better articulated than on 2+2 :)

Continuing on with the hand...

I 3bet to $9, mostly to isolate the CO, but also to reduce the likelihood being coolered by non-nut heart draws if the flush comes in. Nobody in our league would fold :ah::3h: (or :kh::qh:) to a 3bet, but it'll get :jh::5h: to fold in the bb (whereas a lot of folks call single raises with suited junk).

SB folds, BB cold calls and CO calls. Pot is $27.50. We each have $191 behind.

Flop comes :jd::td::7d:, giving me the nut straight, but on an obviously scary flush-y board.

Action checks to me.

What should hero do?
Fit a flux capacitor to your car and go back to the bit where I told you to fold :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:
 

Jimulacrum

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Bet $15 planning to fold to a check raise. This isn't going to clear out "good" flush draws, but maybe the weaker draws will go away. There is no reason to invite bluffing / aggression by checking the flop. Hero's range includes the nut flush / top and middle set / nut flush draw. No reason not to take a stab.

I am considering a free card play if the opportunity comes on the turn. Hero should go to check / fold mode on a 4th diamond.

DrStrange

I'm on board with this thinking. Leaning toward betting $20 instead of $15, but it's a small difference. Intend to fold to a check-raise unless it's a maniac that I know would go to the felt with a ton of hands that aren't made flushes.

If no one check-raises, turn action depends on what specifically happens here and with whom, and of course what card falls. I'm willing to put in a bet on the turn, for example, if it's heads-up against a prime candidate to have the naked ace, two pair, or a set. But if it's, say, a usually tight player who tends to go sticky-passive with modest flushes, plan to go into check/fold mode.
 

ninedeuce

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Bet $15 planning to fold to a check raise. This isn't going to clear out "good" flush draws, but maybe the weaker draws will go away. There is no reason to invite bluffing / aggression by checking the flop. Hero's range includes the nut flush / top and middle set / nut flush draw. No reason not to take a stab.

I am considering a free card play if the opportunity comes on the turn. Hero should go to check / fold mode on a 4th diamond.

DrStrange

I'm on board with this thinking. Leaning toward betting $20 instead of $15, but it's a small difference. Intend to fold to a check-raise unless it's a maniac that I know would go to the felt with a ton of hands that aren't made flushes.

If no one check-raises, turn action depends on what specifically happens here and with whom, and of course what card falls. I'm willing to put in a bet on the turn, for example, if it's heads-up against a prime candidate to have the naked ace, two pair, or a set. But if it's, say, a usually tight player who tends to go sticky-passive with modest flushes, plan to go into check/fold mode.

This was mostly my thinking, too.

Though didn't give as much thought to how I'd proceed if I was check raised...

Sorry, inside joke - I'm a software developer. :D

Lol so am I :)
 

ninedeuce

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Continuing on.

I think for a little and bet $20, for value and protection. If another diamond comes out, no one's getting paid another dollar, so if I'm good, I'd like to bet and get called while I can.

BB immediately check raises to $60. CO folds. Pot is $107.50, $40 for hero to call. Villain has $131 behind.

Hero...?
 

gopherblue

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Fold.

Edit: I note that you said you thought for a bit. This may have given the checkraiser a read that you either have a non-nut flush or a straight/set, and if he’s holding the Ad, he’s raising to push you off your hand. I still think it’s a fold, though.
 
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Kain8

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The BB called a button 3 bet preflop, and then checkraised a monotone flop. He's either full of it (unlikely) or has at least reasonable equity against anything, i.e. :ad::qc:. A flush is most likely for sure, and you're in dire straights with your straight. Shrug and fold.
 

ninedeuce

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Fold.

Edit: I note that you said you thought for a bit. This may have given the checkraiser a read that you either have a non-nut flush or a straight/set, and if he’s holding the Ad, he’s raising to push you off your hand. I still think it’s a fold, though.

Some context. The app we're using is PokerBros, which for the most part, I enjoy using because they give players very little time to make decisions (10 seconds? 20 seconds?) and the action moves very quickly as a result.

So "for a bit" in this case means perhaps five seconds, but in the context that most player actions happen in one or two seconds.
 

Moxie Mike

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Haven't read past the preflop action yet:

Given your description of the opener, I'd prefer to 3-bet pretty large from the button here. So a 3-bet to $11.50 should be a good amount to 1) eliminate the SB and BB who have both been described as formidable opponents; 2) possibly take the pot down right there (a solid result); and 3) set up the post-flop c-bet should have a high probability of success given the fit-or-fold nature of the CO.

To the logic that 89 suited plays better against multiple opponents, that works better when your opponents are clueless. Flatting may induce the SB and/or BB to call and take a cheap flop given the price they're being laid, but quality opponents aren't going to give HERO a lot of action unless they also happen to smash the flop... in which case HERO could find himself facing a big check-raise with a strong-yet-vulnerable draw (assuming the flop hits him). Much better to try to get rid of the capable opponents who could put HERO in a tough spot.

Reading on...

You haven't spoken (unless I missed it) as to how you're perceived (or how you think you're perceived) so this is kind of a generalization.

So the BB has put in a sizable C/R into two opponents. This opponent probably doesn't put HERO on exactly a flopped straight... that would be an oddly specific read. Let's at least give strong consideration that the BB doesn't like the all-diamond flop any more than the HERO does.

The BB is raising to protect something. BB is very unlikely to have air given there are two opponents and HERO has shown considerable strength (3-betting pre & c-betting into two opponents on a highly coordinated flop) to this point in the hand. A savvy opponent should conclude HERO is strong and wouldn't run a bluff here.

A strong player probably wouldn't take a flop with a garbo suited holding in this situation, so I think you can remove all the k-3s and suited gappers out of the BB's range. Furthermore, card removal takes A-Js, A-10s, A-7s, K-10s, K-Js, Q-Js, Q-10s, 6-7s, 9-10s, J-9s, 7-8s, etc. out of his range. What does that leave? There are nine A-Xs combos, K-Qs and maybe 5-6s? A flush seems rather unlikely here, and the nut flush may smooth call the flop bet to try to induce the CO to stick around. A flopped SF almost certainly smooth calls here unless they think aggression will pay off.

Would the BB take a flop in this situation with something as marginal as A-J offsuit? Could he have flopped a pair and the NFD?

Personally, I think it's much more likely the BB holds Ad-Kx, Ad Qx, Kd-Qx... a big pocket pair like Ad-Ax, Kd-Kx or a flopped set.

So HERO's flopped straight has a decent amount of equity against villain's range. As such I think folding is not a great option. HERO is ahead or virtually tied in this spot many times... and of course HERO is drawing dead a percentage of the time too - worth considering but not a huge concern IMO.

So I think it's a decision between calling and jamming.

The case for calling:

Calling the $40 allows HERO to wait for a safe turn card with the added benefit of seeing the BB's turn action before committing the rest of his stack. If the turn card is safe (any non-diamond 6,5,4,3 or deuce (15 cards)) and the BB jams HERO can re-evaluate whether he wants to stack off... but HERO will be getting ~2-1 pot odds and would be a pretty big favorite against anything except a flopped flush.

Alternatively, if the BB checks after a blank hits the turn (or something he maybe doesn't want to see, like the board pairing or a 4th diamond), HERO could consider jamming the turn or checking back in hopes of getting to showdown as cheaply as possible.

With 45 unseen cards, the turn card is going to be uncomfortable at best 2/3rds of the time.

The case for jamming:

The pot is large and inducing a fold and taking it down now is a good result. Jamming has the added benefit of putting the BB to a decision for all his chips and he'll have 20 seconds to make a decision. He'll snap call with a made flush - but the rest of his range will give him pause. Fold equity probably isn't super high in this spot, but it's gotta be greater than zero.

Jamming and getting called has HERO flipping against the pair/FD, comfortably ahead of a set, slightly behind the straight/flush combo draw and of course drawing dead to a flopped flush.

Given the number of potentially scary turn cards combined with HERO's fold equity, I'd say Jamming>Calling. I'm never folding here.
 

Frogzilla

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Flopping a straight on a monotone board seems like a great time to keep bluffs in opponents range and pot control. Check back flop
 

Moxie Mike

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Flopping a straight on a monotone board seems like a great time to keep bluffs in opponents range and pot control. Check back flop

I agree in principle, but there really aren't a lot of great turn cards and HERO has zero prospects of improving. I think a better case for checking back would be in an effort to get to showdown as cheaply as possible... a strategy that certainly has merit.
 

ninedeuce

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The BB called a button 3 bet preflop, and then checkraised a monotone flop. He's either full of it (unlikely) or has at least reasonable equity against anything, i.e. :ad::qc:. A flush is most likely for sure, and you're in dire straights with your straight. Shrug and fold.

As mentioned above BB is a winning player in our group. He's up about $3k since we started (we keep a detailed ledger). Would describe him as loose passive pre, and tight aggressive post, but he plays the player, too.

He plays middle/bottom sets this way pretty much always OOP. Also two pair. Would imagine he'd do the same with :ad: in his hand, or if he hit a baby flush. Would not imagine him doing this with straight flush/nut flush.

You haven't spoken (unless I missed it) as to how you're perceived (or how you think you're perceived) so this is kind of a generalization.

I'm perceived as tighter and less bluffy than most in the group. I'm also up a little more than $3k over 11k hands, and considered competent. The players who give me the most trouble know that (1) in general, I'll trade EV for reduced variance and (2) I get scared off by huge (absolute) bets without a very strong hand. Villain has mostly played me well.

So the BB has put in a sizable C/R into two opponents. This opponent probably doesn't put HERO on exactly a flopped straight... that would be an oddly specific read. Let's at least give strong consideration that the BB doesn't like the all-diamond flop any more than the HERO does.

The BB is raising to protect something. BB is very unlikely to have air given there are two opponents and HERO has shown considerable strength (3-betting pre & c-betting into two opponents on a highly coordinated flop) to this point in the hand. A savvy opponent should conclude HERO is strong and wouldn't run a bluff here.

This was about as far as I got in my analysis before having to make a decision. Sounds silly when you consider all the possible network latencies of a mobile app, but this raise felt more like protection than value.
 

ninedeuce

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Continuing on...

I thought a lot here, and came within a second of folding.

Tried to run the possibilities in my head of likely holdings based on his BB cold calling range (with consideration that he knows I might be raising light on the button, esp given the fish in the CO).

Also in light of my observation that he likes to play big hands fast, faster than most. A made flush was a strong possibility (more likely non-nut), so was a set, two pair (JTs), and a semi-bluff with :ad: in his hand. Also gave him some credit (maybe 5% of the time) with a stone cold bluff.

As time was about to run out, I just went with the sense that this raise felt more about protection and I had to at least call.

But because time was about to run out, I only had time to (frantically!) click call :/

Once I called, I decided that I was checking behind (if given the chance) the rest of the way. If the board paired or another diamond hit, I was likely folding to any aggression.

Pot is now $147.50. Hero and villain each have $131 behind.

Turn is the :3s:. Villain shoves his remaining $131.

Pot is now $278.50, $131 for hero to call.

Hero...?
 

gopherblue

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Continuing on...

I thought a lot here, and came within a second of folding.

Tried to run the possibilities in my head of likely holdings based on his BB cold calling range (with consideration that he knows I might be raising light on the button, esp given the fish in the CO).

Also in light of my observation that he likes to play big hands fast, faster than most. A made flush was a strong possibility (more likely non-nut), so was a set, two pair (JTs), and a semi-bluff with :ad: in his hand. Also gave him some credit (maybe 5% of the time) with a stone cold bluff.

As time was about to run out, I just went with the sense that this raise felt more about protection and I had to at least call.

But because time was about to run out, I only had time to (frantically!) click call :/

Once I called, I decided that I was checking behind (if given the chance) the rest of the way. If the board paired or another diamond hit, I was likely folding to any aggression.

Pot is now $147.50. Hero and villain each have $131 behind.

Turn is the :3s:. Villain shoves his remaining $131.

Pot is now $278.50, $131 for hero to call.

Hero...?
Do what I said before.
 
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