Online vs Live Behavior (1 Viewer)

dkersey

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Like a lot of you, I have shifted to online play. I'm playing in a private club using an app that has been referenced in other threads. I was way up initially, but now running into the situation below a lot! I'm back to even. Would like some feedback!

Playing .50/1 NLHE, Hero short stacked at 60, villains stacks are quite varied but on average a little higher than hero's stack, no deep stacks yet. Hero gets KhQh in late position, 2 limpers before me, raise 4X to 4, get 3 callers. Flop is K56 rainbow (except no heart). Its checked to me, With top pair and good kicker, I bet pot - 2 fold, 1 call. Turn is 6. Checked to me again, with 2 pair I am concerned about caller, I bet 1/2 pot (16) and was called. River is 3. Caller bets my stack (8), I call. He turns over 5x6x for a turned boat (and flopped 2 pair).

I understand villains post flop play to trap, I would do the same. I have lost to 10 boats in the last 48 hours like this!!!

We all agree that playing online for play money will not evoke proper behaviors, but this is not that, this is for realz money (but not a lot of money). So what is going on? I've been thinking about this and have my own thoughts but want to hear yours. Open to feedback!

Just a cooler?
Just a normal downswing of poker?
Online is rigged?
Hero sucks at poker?
Hero is okay at poker has the leak of ... ?
Hero screwed up right here at X ?
Villian got super lucky?
 

Josh Kifer

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I personally think online makes aggressive players more aggressive. Table play nearly everytime I play is a bit more low key. Without the talk and banter, people communicate more with harder bets and looser calls into a pot.
 

RichMahogany

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Online makes me call more loosely when I’m card dead or running bad. I think “I couldn’t have been out flopped or drawn out on again, could I?” The answer is almost always yes, which then tilts me and makes me play even looser. When I play live, I don’t tilt in nearly the same way or as much. Something about hanging out with the guys and having a drink or two makes it more bearable for me.

TL; DR Online is rigged :) :) :)
 

Poker Zombie

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I really dislike online, even though it's where I learned to cut my teeth back in the mid 2000s.

It's good for the game, but once I started playing live, I learned that there is more to the game than the game. It's the friends, the table chatter, the whole social aspect.

It's also why the WSOP was my least favorite live event ever. Most everybody was just hunkered down firing for a bracelet.
 

shorticus

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I’ve actually had a blast playing online with our guys in the Pokerrr2 app.

There are little things that you can’t pickup on like emotion and what not. That can lead to some confusion, but ultimately if you’re guys are talking via chat window. Online can be fun.
 

boltonguy

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I have been playing online regularly for the last 15 months to improve my game. Started at .02/.05 and moved up to .05/.10 this year and am winning >20BB hr. Maybe player pool tendencies are different at your stakes and platform but my .02:

I dont believe that online is rigged - meaning no god mode, noone controls the runouts, etc. however playing in the private clubs there may be an opportunity for collusion - I play on ignition which is anonymous so less opportunity for collusion. I think that because you see more hands per hour it seems like there are more bad beats and river suckouts but the amount of variance aligned to your play style is statistically the same it just comes faster if that makes sense.

Looking at the hand you played - I think your open is fine, could have gone 5 - 6BB (3 - 4BB open + 1BB per limper) to punish limpers and drive out drawing hands; flop (hindsight is always 20/20 given V's hand) but could have bet less say 1/2 - 2/3 pot because why bet big unless you were protecting against an Ace on the turn? Turn is standard and the river is a fold - pot is too big for TPGK with a paired and connected board 3,5,6,6 puts lots of straights & trips out there that hit V's limp/calling range for 3BB pfr.

I have to emotionally fight the desire to be a station on the river and hero call myself but when I maintain discipline I am a winning player.
 

Poker Zombie

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My iPad is so old, chat is difficult. I'll type something, and about 5 second later the words finally appear. I then have to re-read it for spell-check misinterpretations, and then go back and correct them, requiring 3-5 more taps just to get it to highlight the right word. By then the convo has moved on, or I just look like a dullard with a really slow wit (which would match my poker skills).

Still, if it's the only game, I'm in.
 

boltonguy

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Other suggestion if you are playing on PC is to run a HUD. I run PokerTracker4. Even though ignition is anonymous HUD still helps to track behavior especially after an hour of play - sample starts to become statistically relevant and you can see who is VPIPing 40/3 and 11/7 and adjust when in pots with those players. I think live we have more to hang our assessment of play on with a person right there - it can be challenging for me to track player behavior in my head on a screen so the HUD helps. Have fun!

Edit: PT4 also captures all your hands and you can run a leak tracker against it and replay hands that you lost to perform analysis. Super useful versus not having a hand history.
 

boltonguy

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There's just no joy, playing online. It's good for passing the time. It's good for making a few bucks if you're good, I suppose. But there's no joy in it.

Agreed. Online is like work. Good to practice for live play though ... .05/.10 on ignition plays like 1/3 at my local casino so a good opportunity to get hands in cheap :)
 

shorticus

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Other suggestion if you are playing on PC is to run a HUD. I run PokerTracker4. Even though ignition is anonymous HUD still helps to track behavior especially after an hour of play - sample starts to become statistically relevant and you can see who is VPIPing 40/3 and 11/7 and adjust when in pots with those players. I think live we have more to hang our assessment of play on with a person right there - it can be challenging for me to track player behavior in my head on a screen so the HUD helps. Have fun!

Edit: PT4 also captures all your hands and you can run a leak tracker against it and replay hands that you lost to perform analysis. Super useful versus not having a hand history.
No offense to you directly @boltonguy, but this what can make online poker suck. Lots of people utilize this analytical software but have no personal analysis skill. They have software doing the work for them but couldn’t make a single decision on a live table. That’s why I wouldn’t play high stakes online with guys I’m not familiar with.
 

Chris Manzoni

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You need to size down your c-bet to much smaller, say a tiny bit more than a quarter of the pot, you want to keep in hands that you crush and lose the minimum to hands that have you crushed. When you c-bet full pot, on the turn the pot is almost 50 and you only have 40 behind, your SPR is far too low to fold your hand.

Were you to bet five on the flop then the pot is only 26 on the turn which you can check back to induce a bluff from villain on the river, you may also find a fold on that river if V bets a size that you know means he has very few bluffs.
 

boltonguy

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No offense to you directly @boltonguy, but this what can make online poker suck. Lots of people utilize this analytical software but have no personal analysis skill. They have software doing the work for them but couldn’t make a single decision on a live table. That’s why I wouldn’t play high stakes online with guys I’m not familiar with.

No offense taken and I couldnt agree more. You can be up against someone running a HUD with a bunch of preflop range apps and software like flopzilla to analyze equities and make the "right" EV decisions. I have heard people say that online is harder than same stakes live as a result. I dont see myself playing 1/3 online any time soon! In my opinion and experience LIVE is much easier (edit) and FUN :).
 

Frogzilla

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So online in a regular poker site is super tough. I think online .25/.50 is generally regarded as tougher than live 2/5 or even 5/10. That’s for general online population, they just crush most of us here.

That said, with how you sized bets in this hand postflop, you might struggle. It could be you have some good poker instincts live that covered for this weakness, but online you’re completely exposed. Bet sizing and ranges are basically the skill of online poker if you take all the live reads aspects out of it. There is a bunch of articles and YouTube around poker theory, it’s a complex game but I would start out with these two topics:
-flop bet sizing (1/2 pot instead of pot on K56 4-ways)
-betting with polarized ranges (should definitely check back KQ on the turn, maybe even check flop through)
 

DoubleEagle

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My iPad is so old, chat is difficult. I'll type something, and about 5 second later the words finally appear. I then have to re-read it for spell-check misinterpretations, and then go back and correct them, requiring 3-5 more taps just to get it to highlight the right word. By then the convo has moved on, or I just look like a dullard with a really slow wit (which would match my poker skills).

Still, if it's the only game, I'm in.
Have you updated to the most current version of iOS? IDK, but might help if not.
 

Ethan

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Probably already said in the thread but you don’t want to play for stacks with top pair good kicker (escpecially with no nutty draws).

Flop bet should be smaller. Accomplish the same thing with 1/2-2/3 sized bet. Then check the turn for pot control. Get your thin value on the river and play your opponent from there.

Enjoy online. We are luck we have that at least! Though friends on video chat keep reminding me to stop shuffling chips into the mic :meh:
 

Poker Zombie

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Have you updated to the most current version of iOS? IDK, but might help if not.
I does not support anything higher than iOS 9.x.x.

It's old.

Also, when did it become acceptable for a thousand dollar piece of equipment become nearly useless in less than 8 years?
 

BGinGA

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Sorry to say, but it became nearly useless long before then. :(
 

Lemonzest

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Also moving over to online and not enjoying it. I mean I do enjoy playing but I get my ass kicked and there is also no human aspect. I am just reminded of how much better live poker is with human interaction. Live poker is best among friends, second best is in a casino, and then somewhere there is a distant and heartless/soul less third place which is online.

Our group played online cash game on stars last night and it just wasn't the same. Most people left the game in under an hour. I like being in quarantine in general but it really sucks as it is killing live poker.

I lost with a full house to a straight flush...the one saving grace was that at least I was losing money to my friend and now we have a fun story. Better that than sending the money to some random russian.

Long live live poker among friends!
 

boltonguy

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My home game group is playing on PokerStars as a greoup in the Home Game area as well - one thing we have done is set up a Skype or Zoom meeting (free) that allows us to all call in with video while we play so we still get the same chatter & smack talk as in person :) Video is a huge addition to playing Home Games on that site. It does require a setup with a camera but most laptops seem to come with a camera nowadays. If anyone would like help setting that up LMK.
 

AceFour

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We switched over to Pokerrr2 while covid is running loose. I am not see much different play from the live game. The hand you described above is something I typically see at our game with a mix of calling stations, loose players and good poker players. Some of those folks don't look at pot odds or implied odds they just see as a lottery scratch off. I have seen players call all the way down to the river with nothing more than a big ace with the board showing possible flushes and straights. Sometimes you have players that just like to gamble.
 

LotsOfChips

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Online on the commercial sites is full of loose players that will call down to the river chasing (and often hitting) the miracle draw, Bots that play to an algorithm that is tough to beat, players multi-tabling 14 games, HUDs that track every action you take and make you pretty transparent, and a host of other things such as abusive chat. Not so much of an issue in home groups with friends (although there is nothing stopping them from using HUDs against you, unless you are on a platform that doesn't support them).

Also the rake becomes a factor in cash games (unless you use play money and refund the rake afterwards) and the Turbo nature of most tournaments is very different than a casual home tournament with 15-20 minute blinds. But the biggest difference from live is the opportunity to socialize and converse (the chat function just isn't the same, even when playing with people you know). Zoom or Skype can make it better, but still not the same.

So to the OP, no its not rigged, but it does play a bit differently than live.

As far as the hand you were asking about, you had top pair-okay kicker on flop, which may win a small pot, but not a big one. The caller to the pot bet might have caught your attention, and it turns out he was sticking with something (bottom 2 pair and you were already behind). Once the board pair was turned, you were in a situation where you were probably behind to anyone who called your bet. Pot control may have been advisable at that point, although I understand (boy do I understand) the urge to try to buy the pot.
 

Souzalcohol

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Not hiding i'm prefering live sessions. Social is an important factor but there more than that, i love to find tells like a detective you know ^^' i prefer to loose finding tells than win by strategy, technics and maths. What's more people online can be so rude and direspectful cause they behind a screen, as the last commentsaid, chat function isn't the same ^^. On live session i never see anyone get mad or crazy for getting bad beat or anything. (laying from french's club in france ^^ sorry for my english)
Internet is cool when you can't live. It's really fast that's amazing to make volume but.. sometimes you wanna touch cards and chips ah ah
By the way i always playing online clicking one hand and doing some chip tricks the other hand ah ah ah :)
 

BonScot

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then somewhere there is a distant and heartless/soul less third place which is online
Yeah but as my old dad says “it’s better than a boot in the balls” :LOL: :laugh:

The big difference with online is hands per hour so you do see a lot more lucky river cards helping villains out. But on saying that I get lucky a lot more often online as well so it probably evens out.

I always play no limit live so right now I’m playing limit and using online as a way to learn the differences in how you play limit vs no limit. Right now I’m enjoying it (and I’m not losing which also helps).

@Poker Zombie I’ve got an iPad 2 which is pretty much obsolete now and I recently lost my 888 poker app because I can’t update it past iOS 9. If you have a laptop I’d recommend PokerTracker as it’s a great way of finding out where your leaks are. I would have guessed my biggest leak was how I play flops. Turns out that’s fine but I’m a complete maniac betting on the turn :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:

Anyway in summary online poker = better than no poker.
 

grebe

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Playing .50/1 NLHE, Hero short stacked at 60, villains stacks are quite varied but on average a little higher than hero's stack, no deep stacks yet. Hero gets KhQh in late position, 2 limpers before me, raise 4X to 4, get 3 callers. Flop is K56 rainbow (except no heart). Its checked to me, With top pair and good kicker, I bet pot - 2 fold, 1 call. Turn is 6. Checked to me again, with 2 pair I am concerned about caller, I bet 1/2 pot (16) and was called. River is 3. Caller bets my stack (8), I call. He turns over 5x6x for a turned boat (and flopped 2 pair).

pre: You have 2 limpers. $4 is a small raise since there you are the 4th person putting money in the pot. It's ok, but just know you are getting action.

flop: Decent flop for you, but you have 1 pair. You bet POT. Who calls here? 1010, K5, K6, 55, 66, 78, and maybe a couple other straight draws. We will assume 77-99 fold, but maybe a calling station or two could have these. Also assuming that hands like AK and JJ+ would have 3 bet....but they could have trapped. Which of these hands do you actually want to be up against? Pretty much the straight draws and nothing else. Short answer: your bet is too big here, it polarized your opponents.

Turn: You are concerned about caller but you bet into him anyways....but for smaller. This seems lighting money on fire.

River: No reason to back off now with $8 left. Damage is already done.
 

Coyote

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I have heard people say that online is harder than same stakes live as a result.
Harrington, in his two books on cash, which have been out for some years, clearly states that online games have the hardness of live ones of 10x the stakes.

By the way, I 'm a total noob to online and have only played a handful of tourneys in online "homes" for very low buy-ins.
It was interesting to read however that P*stars do NOT completely ban tracking software, which is unfair even if no money at all were involved. Or, tracking software should be automatically offered to each and every person making an account and downlowading their software.
 

BonScot

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Harrington, in his two books on cash, which have been out for some years, clearly states that online games have the hardness of live ones of 10x the stakes.

By the way, I 'm a total noob to online and have only played a handful of tourneys in online "homes" for very low buy-ins.
It was interesting to read however that P*stars do NOT completely ban tracking software, which is unfair even if no money at all were involved. Or, tracking software should be automatically offered to each and every person making an account and downlowading their software.
I bought PokerTracker and the main advantage it gives me is it shows me where my leaks are. The stats on opponents can be quite useful but nowhere near as useful as me being told that I am absolutely mental when it comes to playing the turn :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:
 

grebe

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Harrington, in his two books on cash, which have been out for some years, clearly states that online games have the hardness of live ones of 10x the stakes.

By the way, I 'm a total noob to online and have only played a handful of tourneys in online "homes" for very low buy-ins.
It was interesting to read however that P*stars do NOT completely ban tracking software, which is unfair even if no money at all were involved. Or, tracking software should be automatically offered to each and every person making an account and downlowading their software.

While I agree with the above, I don't think this applies in his specific case, because he is playing with his same group.

What I think makes online tougher is that you are playing against many opponents that are multi tabling (or otherwise multi tasking) thus playing much tighter than what you would normally find in any live game where your attention is focused on the one game. Also, poker tracker. Which, btw you cannot use on bovada, or pokerrrr.
 
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