Now I get the Euro chip breakdown (and finally, conclusive evidence of whether the $20 or $25 chip is more efficient)

WedgeRock

Royal Flush
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
15,456
Reaction score
26,035
Location
America's High-Five
So I should start off by saying that I'm not even sure there is a standard European breakdown. I have, however, seen (over and over), the use of the 10 and 50 chips in Europe, and I've seen (from time to time) the use of a 2 chip. For purposes of this exercise, when I mention the European breakdown, I am referring to a 1/2/5/10/25/50 breakdown.

I'm sure there are some cultural overtones at play, but the most obvious difference between the North American breakdown (1, 5, 25) and the European breakdown (1, 2, 5, 10, 25, 50) is chipset efficiency versus betting efficiency.

Common thinking around here (PCF and the US/Canada in general I would say) is that a breakdown that jumps 4-5 times between denoms is most efficient. So 1, 5, 20 or 25, 100, 500 and so on. While it may not be the most efficient in terms of minimizing chips for a bet, it follows a certain logic that appeals to North Americans and allows us to efficiently translate bets into denominations that make sense.

I don't pretend to speak authoritatively about the way Europeans think about currency, but given that the poker chip progression is more often denominations of 1, 2, 5, 10, 25 and 50, I assume there is a tendency towards efficiency in bets, rather than overall chipset efficiency. I came to that conclusion after creating the charts below.

For bets between 1 and 99, the average number of chips needed using the North American breakdown is 5.556 chips. On the other hand, using a European breakdown, the average number of chips needed for bets between 1 and 99 is only 3.434 chips.

North American $25.png


European.png


While more efficient bets can be made using the European breakdowns, they most certainly require more chips overall in the chipset. This analysis assumes that every bet is as likely as every other bet. To be a fair analysis, each bet would have to be weighted as to how often it is made in a typical game. There are probably also psychological considerations of what amounts people are likely to bet based on the denominations in front of them (for example, in a $1/$2 game, how often does someone bet $73? Are they more likely to bet $75 if using a North American chip breakdown? Or are they more likely to bet $85 using a European breakdown?) that a casino would be interested in, but I haven't really considered here.

I guess I won't ever complain again that a chipset with 10 and 50 chips are inefficient because, in truth, they are efficient in a different way.

Which leads me to two profound conclusions:
  1. Which North American breakdown is most efficient, the 1/5/20 or the 1/5/25?

    Guess before you click the spoiler?

    They are exactly the same at an average of 5.556 chips per unweighted bet.

    North American $20.png

  2. What is the most bet-efficient chipset breakdown?

    Unless you are going to suggest something ridiculous like a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 97, 98, 99 breakdown, the most efficient breakdown is the soon-to-be standard 1, 3, 4, 9, 11, 16, 20, 25, 30, 34, 39, 41, 46, 47, 49, 50 breakdown, where all bets 1-99 can be made with no more than two chips and the average unweighted bet is made with just 1.838 chips! You're welcome.

    Efficeint1.png
    Efficeint2.png


    I think this efficiency breakdown illustrates the point of why a less efficient breakdown (like the North American or even the European breakdown) is actually more efficient overall... It gives us fewer choices that can be processed into actual bets more quickly.

I'm going to bed.
 
Last edited:

GianThaMan

Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2020
Messages
2,316
Reaction score
3,215
Location
New York
What is the most bet-efficient chipset breakdown?

undefined
Ok, but we can go further, how about the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99 breakdown. It comes in at an average of 1 chip per bet. :D
 

WedgeRock

Royal Flush
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
15,456
Reaction score
26,035
Location
America's High-Five
Ok, but we can go further, how about the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99 breakdown. It comes in at an average of 1 chip per bet. :D

As you were posting this, I edited my post to address this issue. I didn't think we were making *RIDICULOUS* suggestions... :rolleyes:

;)
 

allforcharity

Royal Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2017
Messages
14,778
Reaction score
16,523
Location
Burnaby (Greater Vancouver), BC
Interesting theory.
Chip efficiency for betting: perhaps
Chip efficiency for playing: *giggle*
"I bet $37. Hold on while I sort through my chips to find the 2 that I need."
I actually thought it might be April 1.


Whoops, I forgot. Group buy?
 

Coyote

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2018
Messages
5,632
Reaction score
8,225
Location
Athens, Greece
Also, for counting stacks and pots, just as too many denominations are a PITA, so are too many chips of any specific denomination.
 

slisk250

Straight Flush
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
7,875
Reaction score
13,096
Location
Rocky Mountain High
Are there versions of games or situations that the euro denominations makes more sense? eg. 4 dollar drop chips in Vegas. Maybe there is more to it besides culture differences.
 

Eriks

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
3,240
Reaction score
5,911
Location
Sweden
European here. I’ll side with the Americans on this, I dislike 10/50 or other ”weird” denoms. Don’t really play in casinos though so not an issue for me.
 

WedgeRock

Royal Flush
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
15,456
Reaction score
26,035
Location
America's High-Five
I think european casinos just match the available bills vs chips?
There are 1 and 2 Euro coins and 5 10 20 50 100 (200) bills

might be easier to cash out?
Ironicly, in the US, we have 1, 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 bills. There is a $2 bill, but it's not the n high circulation... I'm not sure it's made any more.

In Canada, the smallest "bill" is $5, but they have $1 and $2 coins.
 

BELGRADE

Flush
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
1,639
Reaction score
2,330
Location
Paris "No-Go-Zones"
I do not understand this debate!?!
If you were playing Pot Limit you would only use even numbers.
Even chips to play in Pot Limit is known yet .... all casinos do it to earn more money (less time than the dealer calculates the pot + more hands every hours).
Chips of € 50 are often used to play Pot Limit.
If you play in Pot Limit in € 2- € 4 the blinds you will get this denomination of chips:
€ 2, € 10 and direct € 50.
No interest in using € 20 or € 100 chips in this case.


I think the odd chip is more suitable for No Limit games or bank games (black jack, Roulette...)
 

Eriks

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
3,240
Reaction score
5,911
Location
Sweden
If you play in Pot Limit in € 2- € 4 the blinds you will get this denomination of chips:
€ 2, € 10 and direct € 50.
No interest in using € 20 or € 100 chips in this case.
In limt either must be the same.
I get why one would do this but it would still tilt me
 

WedgeRock

Royal Flush
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
15,456
Reaction score
26,035
Location
America's High-Five
I do not understand this debate!?!
If you were playing Pot Limit you would only use even numbers.
Even chips to play in Pot Limit is known yet .... all casinos do it to earn more money (less time than the dealer calculates the pot + more hands every hours).
Chips of € 50 are often used to play Pot Limit.
If you play in Pot Limit in € 2- € 4 the blinds you will get this denomination of chips:
€ 2, € 10 and direct € 50.
No interest in using € 20 or € 100 chips in this case.


I think the odd chip is more suitable for No Limit games or bank games (black jack, Roulette...)
Is limit poker more prevalent in European casinos?
 

BELGRADE

Flush
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
1,639
Reaction score
2,330
Location
Paris "No-Go-Zones"
I get why one would do this but it would still tilt me

I know that in Paris everthings is calculated.
They don't want players to have money supply in chips.
Less chips,more gambling, less time to calculate the pot, more hands every hours = more money !

Is limit poker more prevalent in European casinos?

Never seen in Paris a table of Limit poker ( Only NL and PotLimit)
 

WedgeRock

Royal Flush
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
15,456
Reaction score
26,035
Location
America's High-Five
I'm sure the betting structure may have something to do with the European breakdown, along with how Europeans think about currency. That's part of the cultural overtones I mentioned in the OP.

But I find it odd that the US uses the European breakdown for currency, but the casino industry uses the 1, 5, 25 breakdown.

My point of this exercise was not to find the answer as to why, but more to explain how the European breakdown was efficient (in a different way), although as pointed out by @BELGRADE, I might be doing that through North American eyes...

Still, the conversation is interesting, I think.
 

HMK

3 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2019
Messages
676
Reaction score
1,560
Location
Sweden
I think it all depends on what your other denoms are. I can see a lot of them working to be honest. Let's say if I were to add a high value plaque to my cash set for instance, i can easily see that as a 200kr. It's not really for betting and would be a lot cheaper for me to build a bank that way. Also, we have 200kr bills, so people are used to it anyway. Obviously a 200kr chip/plaque would be pointless in a set with 100kr too.

That said, my prefernce is 1/5/20 for the lower denoms. Since the Swedish kr is basicly monopoly money compared to dollars, euros or pounds we don't have fractionals in our currency anymore.
 

BELGRADE

Flush
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
1,639
Reaction score
2,330
Location
Paris "No-Go-Zones"
The conversation is interesting.
The metric system is completely different between Americans and Europeans (luckily you roll on the right that's already it :D )

main-qimg-2f1081d45f34b3c87bde9cc4e5e21cc3
 

BELGRADE

Flush
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
1,639
Reaction score
2,330
Location
Paris "No-Go-Zones"
And as also @HMK points out it depends on the value of your currency too.
A Japanese, a Russian or a Norwegian will not ultimately use the same currency denomination.

When I played in Croatia I played 10-20 blinds, but 10 Croatian Kuna is € 1.33.
And they even had 250 Kuna chips lol
 
  • Like
Reactions: HMK

WedgeRock

Royal Flush
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
15,456
Reaction score
26,035
Location
America's High-Five
And as also @HMK points out it depends on the value of your currency too.
A Japanese, a Russian or a Norwegian will not ultimately use the same currency denomination.

When I played in Croatia I played 10-20 blinds, but 10 Croatian Kuna is € 1.33.
And they even had 250 Kuna chips lol
True, but € and US$/C$ are all relatively comparable.

Let's say if I were to add a high value plaque to my cash set for instance, i can easily see that as a 200kr. It's not really for betting and would be a lot cheaper for me to build a bank that way.
And I wasn't talking about home sets, as those are bound to have different concerns than a casino sets. Few casinos use fracs, but many home sets have them. And chip budget becomes a concern with home sets but is probably less of a factor for casinos. Adding home sets to the discussion is relevant, it's just not the direction I was going.

I guess my conclusion is that a 10 and 50 chip is not terribly inefficient, as I thought it was before yesterday. You need to find a balance between chip and bet efficiency (as clearly the 16-chip breakdown is untenable). Where you land on that spectrum may have to due with cultural bias, games offered, and psychology geared toward making the house the most money (in a casino setting).
 

Legend5555

Full House
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
2,735
Reaction score
3,663
Location
Georgia
So I should start off by saying that I'm not even sure there is a standard European breakdown. I have, however, seen (over and over), the use of the 10 and 50 chips in Europe, and I've seen (from time to time) the use of a 2 chip. For purposes of this exercise, when I mention the European breakdown, I am referring to a 1/2/5/10/25/50 breakdown.

I'm sure there are some cultural overtones at play, but the most obvious difference between the North American breakdown (1, 5, 25) and the European breakdown (1, 2, 5, 10, 25, 50) is chipset efficiency versus betting efficiency.

Common thinking around here (PCF and the US/Canada in general I would say) is that a breakdown that jumps 4-5 times between denoms is most efficient. So 1, 5, 20 or 25, 100, 500 and so on. While it may not be the most efficient in terms of minimizing chips for a bet, it follows a certain logic that appeals to North Americans and allows us to efficiently translate bets into denominations that make sense.

I don't pretend to speak authoritatively about the way Europeans think about currency, but given that the poker chip progression is more often denominations of 1, 2, 5, 10, 25 and 50, I assume there is a tendency towards efficiency in bets, rather than overall chipset efficiency. I came to that conclusion after creating the charts below.

For bets between 1 and 99, the average number of chips needed using the North American breakdown is 5.556 chips. On the other hand, using a European breakdown, the average number of chips needed for bets between 1 and 99 is only 3.434 chips.

View attachment 495211

View attachment 495209

While more efficient bets can be made using the European breakdowns, they most certainly require more chips overall in the chipset. This analysis assumes that every bet is as likely as every other bet. To be a fair analysis, each bet would have to be weighted as to how often it is made in a typical game. There are probably also psychological considerations of what amounts people are likely to bet based on the denominations in front of them (for example, in a $1/$2 game, how often does someone bet $73? Are they more likely to bet $75 if using a North American chip breakdown? Or are they more likely to bet $85 using a European breakdown?) that a casino would be interested in, but I haven't really considered here.

I guess I won't ever complain again that a chipset with 10 and 50 chips are inefficient because, in truth, they are efficient in a different way.

Which leads me to two profound conclusions:
  1. Which North American breakdown is most efficient, the 1/5/20 or the 1/5/25?

    Guess before you click the spoiler?

    They are exactly the same at an average of 5.556 chips per unweighted bet.

    View attachment 495210

  2. What is the most bet-efficient chipset breakdown?

    Unless you are going to suggest something ridiculous like a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 97, 98, 99 breakdown, the most efficient breakdown is the soon-to-be standard 1, 3, 4, 9, 11, 16, 20, 25, 30, 34, 39, 41, 46, 47, 49, 50 breakdown, where all bets 1-99 can be made with no more than two chips and the average unweighted bet is made with just 1.838 chips! You're welcome.

    View attachment 495242View attachment 495243

    I think this efficiency breakdown illustrates the point of why a less efficient breakdown (like the North American or even the European breakdown) is actually more efficient overall... It gives us fewer choices that can be processed into actual bets more quickly.

I'm going to bed.
Got a lot of time on your hands lately?
 

WedgeRock

Royal Flush
Joined
Feb 25, 2016
Messages
15,456
Reaction score
26,035
Location
America's High-Five
Got a lot of time on your hands lately?
Not really, but when the rabbit hole presents itself, what can you do? :unsure:

By the way, the most Chicken McNuggets you can order from McDonald's in the UK (where they serve them in 6-, 9- and 20-packs) without McDonalds being able to fill the order, is 43. In the US (where we serve in McNuggets in 4, 6, 10 and 20 packs -- and a swear I've seen 50-packs, but I think that's just five 10-packs), you can't order 2 nuggets or any odd number.

Also, the efficient breakdown of poker chips and the chips (coins) per bet (transaction) were both derived from this video:

 

ovo

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2014
Messages
6,507
Reaction score
6,261
Location
santa cruz, ca
Interesting stuff wedge, when I first joined chiptalk, was already a member of homepokertourney , I had an ASM set made before I knew anything about poker. I looked at what was available and wanted more denoms for limit games, not really knowing what was best. I created a cash set with no fracs at the time, was still trying to work on what I wanted, hotstamp, but never came to fruition .

So I made a cash set with 1, 1.50, 2, 2.50, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 16, 20, 25,30, 40, 50, 100
I was going to create .05, .10, .20, .25, .50, .75, 1.25, 7.50, 12.50, but didn't

was thinking about small blinds, easy bets
So chips on the table for each limit game would be something like

.25, .50, 1, 2

.50, 1, 2, 4


1, 2, 4, 8

1.50, 3, 6, 12

2, 4, 8, 16

2.50, 5, 10, 20

5, 10, 20, 40

you get the idea, plus, I wanted more colors. I would never do something like this now, having a better knowledge

And for the tourney I made a 50, 250, 2500,

then created a high end tourney with
10000
25000
50000
100000
250000
500000
1,000,000
5,000,000
10,000,000
 

BGinGA

Royal Flush
Tourney Director
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
25,683
Reaction score
39,774
Location
Atlanta
My single question after all this:

How, when, why, and by whom did the $25 denomination chip get introduced into casino play, given that is not a standard currency amount.

There must be a backstory.
 

mike32

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
3,101
Reaction score
5,050
Location
South Lyon, Michigan
My single question after all this:

How, when, why, and by whom did the $25 denomination chip get introduced into casino play, given that is not a standard currency amount.

There must be a backstory.
Could it be casinos figured larger bets would be made more frequently with larger chips, therefore increasing rake? I tend to think every decision a casino makes is about them making more money somehow.

Also dang @WedgeRock there has got to be a better way to spend your precious time. But it's a fun thread so thank you. I have long thought you are a very valuable member to the forums we have both been in over the years like HPT, PMC, CT and here!
 
Top Bottom