NHLE Hand - League Tourney

MrCatPants

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Online league tournament hand. Points at stake in addition to money - logarithmic scale so every finishing place matters, even if it doesn't matter for the money. Tourney pays 4 places - still a ways away, and one monster stack at the other table. Also, bounties are 20% of the buy-in, so part of decisioning as well. Mid-late stages, down to 2 tables of 6 players each.

Hero (not me) is in small blind.

Relevant stacks in big blinds

SB (Hero) - 13 BB
BB (V1) - 18 BB (ABC Poker player)
UTG (V2) - 21 BB (Spewy McSpewerson)

UTG raises to 3BB
LJ folds
HJ folds
Button folds

Hero looks down at :ac::qh:

Action?
 

tabletalker7

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Hero is short stacked (last I knew that was defined as less than 20 BB, correct me if I am wrong) and has a big ace on a 6 player table. Hero should shove without thinking. Hero's stack can't afford to wait for a better opportunity. Gotta go with it.
 

Eriks

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A26BDADB-4673-4367-826F-FAA04A1E8D13.jpeg
 

MrCatPants

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I think most would agree on the pre flop here, but that's not what hero did, so let's continue the hand.

Hero CALLS.

Flop comes :as::kh::6d:

Pot is 7 BB

Hero has 10 BB
V2 has 18 BB

Action on hero.
 

Eriks

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Seems like a slam dunk c/r all-in (unless he bets ridiculously small; I’d consider flatting a 1-2bb cbet and letting him bluff it off on the turn. We’re not overly concerned with it getting checked through here either since there are now potential draws other than gut shots.
 

JustinInMN

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Hero is going to ship it at some point in the hand. But I don't mind checking this flop to induce a bluff.

Problem is with both an ace and king on the flop even spewymcspewerson may abandon bluffs with the lower pocket pairs. Meaning hero is going to win a small pot when hero should have been playing for stacks pre.

Maybe hero will luck out and villian will also have an A so the stacks to the middle are inevitable. Or maybe mr mcspewerson will play cop with a king later in the hand.

But as played, little risk in checking and probably the best chance to play for stacks is to hope spewy bluffs it off. And if spewy doesn't bluff it off, hero's preflop blunder becomes obvious.
 

Highli99

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Problem is with both an ace and king on the flop even spewymcspewerson may abandon bluffs with the lower pocket pairs. Meaning hero is going to win a small pot when hero should have been playing for stacks pre.

Great point here. It also gives me a sense where this hand is going. Pocket 8s or the like making a set on the turn.
 

Taghkanic

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Meaning hero is going to win a small pot when hero should have been playing for stacks pre..

While I agree that this was a shove pre, and given the profile is best played as a check-shove... Winning a “small” pot which is 70% of what one has left behind seems like a decent outcome. I’d much rather have 17 than 10.

Obv, a double-up would be even better.

I just think the value of 7BB in this situation is significant. You can get a lot more preflop folds when you shove future hands with 17 than 10. May also see a couple flops if you want to use the extra cushion that way.

In fact, if villain is genuinely spewy, I might donk into him on the flop. If he’s calling with Kx, worse Aces and underpairs—maybe even four-out Broadway draws—then why not? (There is a player in my Pppoker tourney who *never* believes my flop bets... Calls me like 90% of the time, or checks when I check unless she flops huge. Very profitable.)

If he’s someone who will only call a donk bet with better (KK, AK, A6, 66), then check, keep his weaker hands in, and let him put more in bad.
 

Eriks

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While I agree that this was a shove pre, and given the profile is best played as a check-shove... Winning a “small” pot which is 70% of what one has left behind seems like a decent outcome. I’d much rather have 17 than 10.

Obv, a double-up would be even better.

I just think the value of 7BB in this situation is significant. You can get a lot more preflop folds when you shove future hands with 17 than 10. May also see a couple flops if you want to use the extra cushion that way.

In fact, if villain is genuinely spewy, I might donk into him on the flop. If he’s calling with Kx, worse Aces and underpairs—maybe even four-out Broadway draws—then why not? (There is a player in my Pppoker tourney who *never* believes my flop bets... Calls me like 90% of the time, or checks when I check unless she flops huge. Very profitable.)

If he’s someone who will only call a donk bet with better (KK, AK, A6, 66), then check, keep his weaker hands in, and let him put more in bad.
It’s really hard to construct a balanced donking range, I think we’re better off checking our entire range. What hands would we be donk betting as a bluff here?

This flop heavily favors the utg opener’s range. Just check and let him do his thing imo.
 

JustinInMN

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While I agree that this was a shove pre, and given the profile is best played as a check-shove... Winning a “small” pot which is 70% of what one has left behind seems like a decent outcome. I’d much rather have 17 than 10.

Oh I agree, there is nothing wrong with winning a "small pot" here. Hero shoving pre and hoping spewy finds the fold button one time pre isn't a bad result.

The problem is there is now a hunk of spewy's range that can fold on the flop kx and mid pairs, that couldn't fold pre and in these instances, the pot is smaller than it could have been, unless spewy is still finding the call button no matter what.
 

Taghkanic

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Is anything known about the the villain’s likely impression of Hero?

If the Hero leads out on the flop, will this villain always assume Hero has TPGK+, and act accordingly? Or is this villain not really thinking about anything but his own two cards?
 

Taghkanic

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At least it’s a rainbow board...

So the pot is 11, and the Hero has 8 behind, I think?

The 2BB lead and villain’s call didn’t change that much. Hero could be ahead, or getting slow-played by a set... I find that the spewers only play it passive when they have it, more aggro when weak.

But second two pair has got to be good a big percentage of the time. Betting small and leaving yourself 3-4 behind seems kind of pointless. Check-raising might work. But giving a free card to pair-and-a straight draws seems less than ideal; and it sounds like this guy will station despite the Hero’s “OMC-Lite” profile.

I’d just get it in now and take the L if he has it/sucks out.
 

JustinInMN

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OMC explains hero's line perfectly.

The answer is still hero has to get the money in. Waiting for a better opportunity this short stacked is also a path to defeat.

The only debate is whether or not checking or betting best accomplishes this goal.

But obviously, Hero's strategy is flawed to be at this point.
 

Frogzilla

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We are guaranteed an opportunity to bet on the river, why not use it. Especially after donking an AK board into UTG opener
 

Taghkanic

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Except:

1) The Villain was described as “Spewy McSpewerson.” Which I assume means that his UTG opening range is a lot wider than usual. So AA/KK/QQ/AK should take up less of his likely holdings than one might normally expect.

2) A check does not guarantee a river betting opportunity, since the Hero is OOP as the small blind. Villain may shove the turn if Hero checks.
 

wolfpack

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Villan probably has J10 and hit the straight, but at this point hero has misplayed and has to contination bet on the turn.
 
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JustinInMN

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2) A check does not guarantee a river betting opportunity, since the Hero is OOP. Villain may shove the turn if Hero checks.

I really think this is key, the river either
a) helps spewy
b) brings a scare card that even stops spewey from making a call.
 

Taghkanic

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Another possible consideration — this is 6-handed. So 8BB is going to go faster than if it were 9- or 10-handed.

Having made two pair now, on the turn, seems to me like a much better shoving opportunity than almost any preflop shove one might make with the same stack or shorter. Especially against the spewy guy.

Yeah, Hero might get get dealt a premium hand in the next 10-15 hands. But probably not. And he might be down to 3-5 blinds by that time.

The Q is both good for Hero and a little worrisome... But jeez, it’s near the top of distribution for AQo. Shove, and either take down the existing pot, or double up, or bust. Not the end of the world.

Gonna need several double-ups to make the money anyway.
 
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