New Poker Room Opening- LOTS of questions - I come to listen and not waste your time (1 Viewer)

Robert P

Robert P

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Land is secured! We are putting up a building :)

I've made several posts on this forum, and I don't want to be perceived as wasting people's time. I am in charge of running this poker room and will be dealing with the poker aspect (security/chairs/chips/entertainment/food/tables/schedule/etc.)

I come here seeking expert opinions on chips (Chanman is helping me with tables :P)
Our numbers aren't final yet, but with 85% confidence, we are leaning towards:
8 table poker room - 9 players/table
$.5/$1 + $1/2 + $2/5 + $5/10 cash games being offered. The only debate we have revolves around the necessity of opening with $.5/$1 and $5/10. We will 100% offer $1/2 and $2/5.
Tourney schedule TBD, but I like 10K-30K starting stacks (I like 20-35 starting chips).

That being said, it is looking like we will need at least 10,000 chips for cash. Maybe >15K. For tourney, at least 5K?


What is important to me:
-Security (hard to duplicate chips)
-Excellent player experience (not using poor quality chips like the other rooms in Austin offer)
-Premium product

I'd like to spend <$2 chip (more feels too expensive). What other information do you need from me?



Thanks a million!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Email/PM @David Spragg with Classic Poker Chips their exclusive "casino" only Ewing mold. It is only available to casinos and I would assume poker rooms, but just guessing here, he would be able to confirm availability and pricing. If it works out for you then you have your security in place for chips, and also have excellent chips. Your only other option would be to contact GPI and see if they will work with you on minimums.
 
Robert P said:
CPC seems to all ready be right at/around $2/chip without the Ewing mold?
Click to expand...


No idea what the Ewing mold runs for production, but depending on spot level (solid and 1 for sure and 2 still in many cases) in the some of the less expensive molds you can be in for well under $2/chip
 
More than $2/chip seems absurd to me (especially given the quantity). What other options should I be considering? I was thinking Clay set for cash and Ceramic set for tourney (variety + security)
 
Robert P said:
More than $2/chip seems absurd to me (especially given the quantity). What other options should I be considering? I was thinking Clay set for cash and Ceramic set for tourney (variety + security)
Click to expand...

CPC are the only players in clay chips unless you can convince Paulson to make chips for you.

GOCC, OWPS are both Ceramics vendors you could contact if you choose ceramics.
 
SixSpeedFury said:
Paulson can work with you ONLY if you order in quantities exceeding 10,000.
Click to expand...

I think we're missing a zero here anyhow.

Surely ordering 10-15k chips from cpc there would be a bit of price movement? Worth the dialogue I'd have thought.
 
I've been PMing David Spragg (with different level options). I just wasn't aware that these were my only option for custom clays (for not a casino)
 
Robert P said:
I won't have the proper license for Paulson
Click to expand...

Did anyone read my post......?

...So I called GPI. PM me if you want the contact details for their TX sales representative. The CSR indicated you would probably need to go over ~15k in chips to meet their minimum requirements, but that they will work with you depending on the specs around your card room (how many tables, how many days/hours you are open for etc). They sounded more flexible than I thought.

I think this is very doable given the group buy type interest here, but your budget would need to be drastically altered to afford ~8k of these chips. One way you could do it is seeing as though you have the card room license, is to charge others a small premium on the group buy chips to help fund the purchase of your card room chips. But given the $$$ involved here, this would have to be handled very delicately otherwise you could run into legal clusterfck if not executed properly.

I'm also not sure if the 15k chips would need to be the same to meet minimums, because you would want unique chips for your card room to prevent fraud. And in general, you would also probably have to worry about your patrons walking out the door with your elite chips!

Kind of makes me think, if there is such a demand for Paulsons and they command such ridiculous prices, why aren't more card rooms buying their chips and selling them on the open market, acting as a distributor? Or is this not allowed by the Paulsons purchase agreement? Or maybe they are and eBay buyers are getting bent over a barrel?
 
mummel said:
Kind of makes me think, if there is such a demand for Paulsons and they command such ridiculous prices, why aren't more card rooms buying their chips and selling them on the open market, acting as a distributor? Or is this not allowed by the Paulsons purchase agreement?
Click to expand...

For one, the various state gaming regulators would strongly frown on this, if not outright slam it. Even if that wasn't the case, though, the per-chip cost would make it prohibitive for most denoms. Who's going to pay $10k for a rack of hundos? If you go with "No Cash Value" printed on the chip and then ordered, say, 20k of them to sell to the public, GPI would certainly question such an order and potentially cut off future sales. They seem to be very interested in not only exiting the home market, but preventing any of their chips from being sold to the home market.
 
hod said:
I think we're missing a zero here anyhow.

Surely ordering 10-15k chips from cpc there would be a bit of price movement? Worth the dialogue I'd have thought.
Click to expand...

David has previously stated that economies of scale really don't apply to how his operation runs, and even if they did it would be negligible (a few pennies per chip at mid-5-figure volumes).
 
So, years ago I stumbled into N. Cal for the summer. I played some poker at "the lucky derby". It was not the nicest poker room I've ever been in (by far). However, they did fill their seats.

I remember playing $1/$1 there, which in retrospect was absurd given their silly rake structure. That being said, I feel you could probably offer up any silly structures and the players will come.

In my opinion, the only thing that really matters is...will people sit and play it? It's very simple.

I'm not familiar with your locale and/or competition, but my guess is a single $0.50/$1.00 table might be a good way for newbies to get their feet wet without getting hurt. If you can offer it without killing your rake - I say go for it.
 
Robert P said:
What is important to me:
-Security (hard to duplicate chips)
-Excellent player experience (not using poor quality chips like the other rooms in Austin offer)
-Premium product

I'd like to spend <$2 chip (more feels too expensive). What other information do you need from me?
Click to expand...

Note that you don't need to use the Ewing mold - you could absolutely use another mold such as the HHR (which would seem to make sense in Texas). You could easily put together a set of HHR's at less than $2/chip.

I'm "almost" certain that CPC offers UV patterns for security purposes - I seem to remember the Black Cat Club having UV ink on them?. If so, there's your security. Looks like I may have been incorrect re: the UV security printing. You'll need to inquire with David what security measures they might offer. Also, if you went with weighted colors, the brass flakes in the mix can act as a type of low-level security.
 
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Psypher1000 said:
Note that you don't need to use the Ewing mold - you could absolutely use another mold such as the HHR (which would seem to make sense in Texas). You could easily put together a set of HHR's at less than $2/chip.

I'm "almost" certain that CPC offers UV patterns for security purposes - I seem to remember the Black Cat Club having UV ink on them?. If so, there's your security. Also, if you went with weighted colors, the brass flakes in the mix can act as a type of low-level security. I'm not sure how much it would cost per chip to add a UV design to them, though.
Click to expand...
Toby drew his on after the fact for fun.
 
If it were me, I'd spread $1/1, $1/2, and $2/5 for NL/PL games and spread $2/4 and $4/8 for limit games. You can load up on $1 chips that can play in both games if you have dedicated dealers (which I'm assuming you do, being a proper poker room).

I'd recommend against $5/10 NL or PL everything else considered. You'd have to load up on higher denomination chips in quantities that you won't otherwise need and unless I'm off base, it's not likely that you'd get alot of action for $5/10. Foxwoods has a huge addressable market and never really has more than 1 partially full 5/10 going.

I'm assuming that $1/1 and $1/2 buyins are capped between $200 - $300 and $2/5 is $500.

$1/2 & $2/5 workhorse chip logic: You want enough chips so that if all 9 tables are playing $1/2 and $2/5, you're covered. You want to give players the option of buying in for all workhorse chips, will be the $5 chip in each game. Safest bet is to assume one rack of $5s for each player, and 81 players given 9 tables X 9 max per table. Note that if you cover the chip needs for $1/2 you're also addressing $1/1 at the same time.

$2/4 & $4/8 workhorse logic: "Normal" buyin for limit is 25 big bets, so $200 for the big game, or 2 racks of $1s. Figure the most tables of limit you'll spread is 4 tables with 9 players at each and you'll need chips to cover 36 players, or 72 racks of $1s at 2 racks per player.

This is going to get expensive quickly - you'll need 8100 $5s and 7200 $1s. That number of $1s will also cover the $1 chips needed for the $1/1, $1/2, and $2/5 games.

For higher denomination chips, you're going to want to be able to take half the $5s off the floor for $25s and $100s. That's roughly 1600 $25 chips, or you could break it up and do 1000 $25 chips and 2 racks of $100s.

So here's what I'd do if I were you:

$1 chips = 7000 (bank $7,000)
$5 chips = 8000 (bank $40,000)
$25 chips = 800 (bank $20,000)
$100 chips = 200 (bank $20,000)

...for a total of 16,000 chips and a total bank of $87,000.
 
bergs said:
If it were me, I'd spread $1/1, $1/2, and $2/5 for NL/PL games and spread $2/4 and $4/8 for limit games. You can load up on $1 chips that can play in both games if you have dedicated dealers (which I'm assuming you do, being a proper poker room).

I'd recommend against $5/10 NL or PL everything else considered. You'd have to load up on higher denomination chips in quantities that you won't otherwise need and unless I'm off base, it's not likely that you'd get alot of action for $5/10. Foxwoods has a huge addressable market and never really has more than 1 partially full 5/10 going.

I'm assuming that $1/1 and $1/2 buyins are capped between $200 - $300 and $2/5 is $500.

$1/2 & $2/5 workhorse chip logic: You want enough chips so that if all 9 tables are playing $1/2 and $2/5, you're covered. You want to give players the option of buying in for all workhorse chips, will be the $5 chip in each game. Safest bet is to assume one rack of $5s for each player, and 81 players given 9 tables X 9 max per table. Note that if you cover the chip needs for $1/2 you're also addressing $1/1 at the same time.

$2/4 & $4/8 workhorse logic: "Normal" buyin for limit is 25 big bets, so $200 for the big game, or 2 racks of $1s. Figure the most tables of limit you'll spread is 4 tables with 9 players at each and you'll need chips to cover 36 players, or 72 racks of $1s at 2 racks per player.

This is going to get expensive quickly - you'll need 8100 $5s and 7200 $1s. That number of $1s will also cover the $1 chips needed for the $1/1, $1/2, and $2/5 games.

For higher denomination chips, you're going to want to be able to take half the $5s off the floor for $25s and $100s. That's roughly 1600 $25 chips, or you could break it up and do 1000 $25 chips and 2 racks of $100s.

So here's what I'd do if I were you:

$1 chips = 7000 (bank $7,000)
$5 chips = 8000 (bank $40,000)
$25 chips = 800 (bank $20,000)
$100 chips = 200 (bank $20,000)

...for a total of 16,000 chips and a total bank of $87,000.
Click to expand...

This total bank seems way too small to me. Add 2 more racks of 25s and 3 more racks of 100s.
 
Chicken Rob said:
This total bank seems way too small to me. Add 2 more racks of 25s and 3 more racks of 100s.
Click to expand...

That's almost 10K on every table. I can't remember the last time I saw 10K on a 1/2 table (outside of the NH game we playing with Guinness, but that's obviously an anomaly).

Figure you have an average stack at 1/2 of $500 (which is high), giving you $4500 per table. You have 5 tables of that so $22,500 total. At 2/5, you have an average stack of $1500 at 4 tables, so $13,500 per table X 4 tables = $54,000. That's $76,500 total.

That said, I'm all for more chips! But maybe just another rack of $100s. You'd need a monster night to need the full back in play. Also, remember that this isn't a casino so it'll have open and close times - people won't be able to grind 30 hour sessions into monster stacks regularly....and people will be cashing in regularly throughout a session.
 
bergs said:
If it were me, I'd spread $1/1, $1/2, and $2/5 for NL/PL games and spread $2/4 and $4/8 for limit games. You can load up on $1 chips that can play in both games if you have dedicated dealers (which I'm assuming you do, being a proper poker room).

I'd recommend against $5/10 NL or PL everything else considered. You'd have to load up on higher denomination chips in quantities that you won't otherwise need and unless I'm off base, it's not likely that you'd get alot of action for $5/10. Foxwoods has a huge addressable market and never really has more than 1 partially full 5/10 going.

I'm assuming that $1/1 and $1/2 buyins are capped between $200 - $300 and $2/5 is $500.

$1/2 & $2/5 workhorse chip logic: You want enough chips so that if all 9 tables are playing $1/2 and $2/5, you're covered. You want to give players the option of buying in for all workhorse chips, will be the $5 chip in each game. Safest bet is to assume one rack of $5s for each player, and 81 players given 9 tables X 9 max per table. Note that if you cover the chip needs for $1/2 you're also addressing $1/1 at the same time.

$2/4 & $4/8 workhorse logic: "Normal" buyin for limit is 25 big bets, so $200 for the big game, or 2 racks of $1s. Figure the most tables of limit you'll spread is 4 tables with 9 players at each and you'll need chips to cover 36 players, or 72 racks of $1s at 2 racks per player.

This is going to get expensive quickly - you'll need 8100 $5s and 7200 $1s. That number of $1s will also cover the $1 chips needed for the $1/1, $1/2, and $2/5 games.

For higher denomination chips, you're going to want to be able to take half the $5s off the floor for $25s and $100s. That's roughly 1600 $25 chips, or you could break it up and do 1000 $25 chips and 2 racks of $100s.

So here's what I'd do if I were you:

$1 chips = 7000 (bank $7,000)
$5 chips = 8000 (bank $40,000)
$25 chips = 800 (bank $20,000)
$100 chips = 200 (bank $20,000)

...for a total of 16,000 chips and a total bank of $87,000.
Click to expand...

I'm not a casino expert, but don't forget about dropping a rake. Those chips take a bit of time to recirculate back to the cage and into racks for purchase by players. Also dealer tokes may need to be factored in. Small numbers, but with 9 tables, there may be a lot of $1 chips out of play at any one time. I don't know if Bergs considered this or if it is necessary.

(oops, maybe no rake)
 
Texas card house -- other poker room in Austin
They run $1/$2 NLHE exclusively with 5 tables. These are filled every day and often have waitlists. They do run tourneys on tues and fri (which occupy 2/5 of the tables while they run). These cash games often get $3K and $4K deep (2,000 bbs). While this is amazing for a skilled player, it easily intimidates new players. I want seats filled and I want happy players.

I'm hoping my background as a player will provide an edge in providing a fun player experience.

I don't foresee any limit games running. I see 1 PLO table running 1x/week, but I'm not overly concerned with this. It will be predominantly be $1/$2. I want to added $.5/$1 + $2/$5 + $5/10 as a competitive advantage. The physical space I am working with is already nicer. The location is similar. I need to make sure the product inside is superior.



Anyone here from Austin?
 
Robert P said:
Texas card house -- other poker room in Austin
They run $1/$2 NLHE exclusively with 5 tables. These are filled every day and often have waitlists. They do run tourneys on tues and fri (which occupy 2/5 of the tables while they run). These cash games often get $3K and $4K deep (2,000 bbs). While this is amazing for a skilled player, it easily intimidates new players. I want seats filled and I want happy players.

I'm hoping my background as a player will provide an edge in providing a fun player experience.

I don't foresee any limit games running. I see 1 PLO table running 1x/week, but I'm not overly concerned with this. It will be predominantly be $1/$2. I want to added $.5/$1 + $2/$5 + $5/10 as a competitive advantage. The physical space I am working with is already nicer. The location is similar. I need to make sure the product inside is superior.



Anyone here from Austin?
Click to expand...
I am in San Antonio but spend a few days a month in Austin.
 
I agree that you could skip $.5/$1 and run a $1/$1 table instead.

I like that you want clay chips for cash games, and CPC is great, but there could be a slight concern for security since they do sell to the public in all possible edge spot and color combinations. I don't have a better option to offer and would personally still buy from them, but this is something to be aware of at the cage (check the chip faces of higher denoms, Ewing mold would be most secure). I'd consider getting solid $1's to save on costs, allowing you to buy a larger quantity / spend more on the workhorse chips.

For tournament ceramics I'd contact Game On Chip Company, which is basically former Chipco. Can't really go wrong there.

In addition to quality, a great design is also important. Consider hiring a chip designer if you haven't already, or at least bounce some ideas off the board.

Don't forget to order a batch of special limited edition Grand Opening $5's! (y) :thumbsup:
 
Keep in mind the business model is a monthly membership fee plus per hour seat rental. There is no rake or tipping. No chips are coming off the table except when a player cashes out. The player's fees are taken out when they are leaving the room, not while playing. Lest we forget - - this card room is clearly at risk from the local and state police. It is true nothing has happened to other rooms yet. But as this type of business proliferates, everyone has to know they are pulling on the "tail of the tiger". (The Texas AG offered an advisory opinion that ordering group pizza at a HOME game like I host turns the game unlawful because the players got something of value by reducing the cost of pizza from what they would have paid to order them for personal consumption only. Make no mistake, the state is not looking to turn a blind eye on unlawful gambling. Perhaps the state will defer to local jurisdiction on this, but I expect legal risks shouldn't be discounted. Just the idea you are often sitting on tens of thousands of dollars than could be seized and forfeited should the police decide the budget is a little short this quarter would make me nervous.)

The players are paying $8/hr to play. The house should be spreading anything and any limits based on player interest. I'd be surprised to find a lot of interest for a game bigger than 2/5 but who knows. I wouldn't be shocked to find an interest in limit poker, but not as the main game offered.

I would not spread $0.50/$1 in part to avoid the cost of the fractional chips. Spread $1/$1 or even a single $1 blind as your entry game. Note that the house has no interest in the size of the game - income per player is the same no matter the stakes.

The house avoids a lot of security issues by using only $1s and $5s but incurs extra start up costs due to the extra chips needed.

I have never played in the other Austin room but have played in San Marcos at the River. They don't do much of anything for customer service, though I think that could change if the cash flow does better. They keep the clock running while players go out to get food and/or drink.

You might find it advantageous to offer a nice assortment of amenities (aside from booze which you can't offer). I definitely get cranky paying fees and then having to buy a coke which I know costs 33 cents. My expectations are higher than that. Pizza in bulk is relatively cheap, soda, water, ice, snacks.

I'd spend as much time/money on the seats as the table and chips.

The front of the house is important too. That doesn't sound like your part of the business, but it is where ALL the money is collected. Can't say about other rooms, but the folks in San Marcos are completely inventing that part of the business as they go along. They have a lot of work to do.

DrStrange
 

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