Need a ruling, weird spot (1 Viewer)

[Page]

Regular at my .25/.50 game, very loose/aggressive, deep pockets, loses a big pot and is down to $20. Asks if she can top off for another $100 (max buy in), I tell her I can give her another $80, so she open shoves next hand. Takes pot down, so now at ~$22.

Next hand I am involved in a fair sized pot. During the hand, she folds, gets up from table, goes over to get money from her purse, and drops five $20 on the table between her and I (we are seated next to each other) and returns to the smoking area. Current hand finishes, I grab 4 of the 5 20s, turn around to get chips, and bring her $80 in chips (just a couple bucks over table max). When I return with chips, she has returned to table and shoved her $22 stack in the pot. I don't recall if she announced all in, maybe @Page remembers any details I missed.

What do I do with the $80 in chips? Are they in play? It's not unusual for people to play on credit while I'm banking/chip running.

From what I recall she didn’t verbally announce all in. Then the next player folded, and you were about to give her chips but didn’t know if they should be in play. The table decided they should be in play and then I shoved after the ruling. If I remember that situation correctly.

 

[JustinInMN]

This is why a betting line on the felt or a dedicated dealer in a game with any kind of somewhat serious money in play is absolutely necessary.

I am confused by this comment. I don't know what a betting line really helps in this situation with "chips in transit."

This is the not the case in every casino. The local Jack changed the rule that markers don’t play, only chips. So if a player has a marker while a chip runner is getting chips for them the player is dealt out now. I don’t know why they changed to this rule but it has been that way for a while now.

That's brutal. I have been in spots where it's taken a few hands to get chips. Runners can get scarce if the house starts a new game.

 

[JustinInMN]

So to me, cash is in play if it's on the table at the start of the hand, even if it needs to be changed for chips.

So if the bettor said "all in" then I would rule that includes the chips in transit.

If the bettor just moved the chips without a declaration then it is only the chips moved that are part of the wager, but that player still has the chips in transit in play.

I think this is the standard rule, but obviously house rules may vary.

If cash is put up during a hand, it is not in play until the next hand.

 

[pltrgyst]

That's why you need a house rule that rebuys and add-ons can only be done -- from start to end -- between hands.
Way too messy otherwise.

 

[JustinInMN]

In the end, the floor (my partner handles ruling questions) let her decide if she wanted the additional chips in play or wanted to let the all in ride out.
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I think I will be clamping down on people leaving rebuy/tip off cash on the table when it's not in play. I also like the "bring the chips then take the cash" idea.

If you mean cash on the table is always in play at the start of the hand, I agree. That would be consistent and I think a pretty standard rule.

But I wouldn't worry too much about what happened here.

I can get the justification for asking the player if she legit forgot about the rebuys, but just to be cautious about it, this ruling could damage someone else that acted with the expectation that the 80 you just dropped was on play.

 

[JMC9389]

I am confused by this comment. I don't know what a betting line really helps in this situation with "chips in transit."


That's brutal. I have been in spots where it's taken a few hands to get chips. Runners can get scarce if the house starts a new game.

I meant my point in more of a general sense, not specific to this situation where chips were in transit. If anything, it was pertaining to a dedicated dealer that can keep track of action of whether this individual verbalized an all in that would be binding and including the $80 still in transit. If no one like a dealer or the host could verify the verbal action, the player has recourse here to keep her money.

 

[moose]

Since she dropped $100 on the table and then left, I would have verbally announced "$80 behind" before leaving the table to get her chips so it would be clear to everyone left what she would be playing when you (and she) returned.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I am confused by this comment. I don't know what a betting line really helps in this situation with "chips in transit."


That's brutal. I have been in spots where it's taken a few hands to get chips. Runners can get scarce if the house starts a new game.

here in Cleveland first buy-in for all players must be done at the cage. This is for a new table starting as well. Dealers are only supposed to sell players chips from the tray for rebuys. Most regulars keep a stash of chips in the bag or pocket to avoid the line at the cage. Thankfully the poker room has its own cage.

 

[JustinInMN]

here in Cleveland first buy-in for all players must be done at the cage. This is for a new table starting as well. Dealers are only supposed to sell players chips from the tray for rebuys. Most regulars keep a stash of chips in the bag or pocket to avoid the line at the cage. Thankfully the poker room has its own cage.

Now that I think about it, I think it worked like this last time I was at Bellagio.

 

[casinochipper22]

Regular at my .25/.50 game, very loose/aggressive, deep pockets, loses a big pot and is down to $20. Asks if she can top off for another $100 (max buy in), I tell her I can give her another $80, so she open shoves next hand. Takes pot down, so now at ~$22.

Next hand I am involved in a fair sized pot. During the hand, she folds, gets up from table, goes over to get money from her purse, and drops five $20 on the table between her and I (we are seated next to each other) and returns to the smoking area. Current hand finishes, I grab 4 of the 5 20s, turn around to get chips, and bring her $80 in chips (just a couple bucks over table max). When I return with chips, she has returned to table and shoved her $22 stack in the pot. I don't recall if she announced all in, maybe @Page remembers any details I missed.

What do I do with the $80 in chips? Are they in play? It's not unusual for people to play on credit while I'm banking/chip running.

Money is on the table before hand started... Its in play

 

[casinochipper22]

Money is on the table before hand started... Its in play

The bet is $22 and she is $78 behind.

 

[Machine]

When I run games, the 'golden rule' is what is best for the spirit of the game. Some times it is a hard and fast line, others it is a softer learning approach.

In this case, for the good of the game, you wouldn't want to lose a player over any of this, either way. For me two things come up.
1) Did she push, or did she announce 'all in'? Does she acknowledge she said all in? If it was just a push no verbal, then I'd let it play as is.
2) How did the caller(s) call the bet/raise? If it was a verbal call or they pushed 22 USD then I think the expectation of all was 22 USD, and supersedes the technical rulings.

In cash game I play in, "player x is XXX USD behind" says the houseman, or the play announces "I'm behind XXX USD" or "XXX USD is in play".

The highlight to all the players at the game of THE RULING (which is the houseman's / hosts obligation) and then set the expectation going forward, so everyone knows. In this case I (the host) would take the blame for not making it clear, and side conservatively with the lady. (Plus if she busts out, sucks if you can't go to the board to fill the seat).

 

[JustinInMN]

n cash game I play in, "player x is XXX USD behind" says the houseman, or the play announces "I'm behind XXX USD" or "XXX USD is in play".

This is a good practice. Probably a better way to save confusion more than worrying about which order cash goes in the bank or chips come out.

 

[Dugthefish]

This is a good practice. Probably a better way to save confusion more than worrying about which order cash goes in the bank or chips come out.

Agreed