My typical home game - Comments welcome (1 Viewer)

No 3-Putts

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I just thought I'd post my typical home game format here and see what kind of comments/feedback I get to maybe make it better.

It's not a huge game, usually 7-9 people, 2 or 3 of which are inexperienced tight wads.
We typically do $10 buy-in so some of the tight wads will keep coming. Sometimes $20. But I do unlimited rebuys for the first 4 levels to try to get a little more money in the prize pool. And an add-on after the 4th level for half the buy-in for half the starting chips for anyone that wants to. Starting stacks are T2000 with (10) $5's, (18) $25's, and (15) $100's. Blinds are 20 minutes.

Blinds are:
Level 1 5/10
Level 2 10/20
Level 3 25/50
Level 4 50/100
------------------------ End of rebuys/add-on & Chip up
Level 5 100/200
Level 6 200/400
Level 7 300/600
Level 8 400/800
Level 9 500/1000
Level 10 600/1200
Level 11 700/1400
Level 12 800/1600
Level 13 900/1800
Level 14 1000/2000
Level 15 1100/2200
Level 16 1200/2400
It's a pretty fast paced game and we usually get a 2nd game afterwards.

Some things I've been thinking about are adjusting starting stacks/level length and adding bounties.

What do y'all think? Is there anything that sticks out that I should change to make it better? Thanks in advance.
 
Is there anything that sticks out that I should change to make it better?

Level 1 --> Level 2 = 100% increase
Level 2 --> Level 3 = 150% increase
Level 3 --> Level 4 = 100% increase

Level 1 --> Level 4 = 1,000% increase

A 100% jump between levels 1 and 2 is usually unavoidable, but it actually gets worse level 2 to 3 and continues in levels 3 to 4. Somewhat more palatable because you are starting with 200BB, but that jumped out at me.

@BGinGA?
 
We don't seem to play tournaments any more, but we used to regularly run a T2000. Levels increased much slower, but we started higher and only had 15 min levels.

Small blind: 15, 20, 25, 30, 40, 50, 60, 80, 100, 120, 150, 200, 250, 300, 400, 500.

This might not be fast enough for your tastes, though.
 
A 100% jump between levels 1 and 2 is usually unavoidable, but it actually gets worse level 2 to 3 and continues in levels 3 to 4. Somewhat more palatable because you are starting with 200BB, but that jumped out at me.

Yeah the blinds go up pretty quick during the rebuy period. Not sure if it's a good trade-off encouraging loose/aggressive play early on and getting some rebuys in or if it would be better to increase the buy-in amount and get rid of the rebuys. That would probably promote better poker, but the rebuys also give the inexperienced guys a chance back in if they want. I don't know, I'm kinda on the fence about it. The aggressive blind structure does allow us to play 2 games though.

Crazy fast. For ten bucks I wouldn't want it any different. Cash games?

No I've tried getting cash games going but most of them won't do cash games. And usually by the time there are a few guys out to play cash then the main game is getting near the end anyway. The main game usually ends around level 10-12 and usually with a chop so we can get the 2nd game started.
 
Not a fan of front-loaded formats, or structures that have massively wide ranges (25% to 150% blind increases in this example, averaging 90%). I'm guessing the events typically run about 2-1/2 hours, ending no later than L9 (with a total of 18bb in play). If it runs any later than that, you have some serious nits that don't understand short-stack tournament play.

Even starting with 200bb (which is pretty deep), the average stack is just 20bb after 3 blind levels -- an hour of play -- so essentially, nearly everybody is short-stacked at that point forward. It certainly doesn't encourage good play, reward poker skills, or benefit players by exposing them to real-world tournament conditions.

Imo, there are much better single-table structures that can finish in a 2-1/2 hour window. Here's one T5-base example:

T2000 stacks (200bb)
15-minute levels
lvl sb bb
L1 5 10
L2 10 15
L3 15 25
L4 20 40
L5 30 60
remove T5 chips, end re-buys
L6 50 100
L7 75 150
L8 125 250
remove T25 chips
L9 200 400
L10 300 600
L11 500 1000 ***
L12 800 1600
L13 1200 2400
L14 2000 4000

Typically runs about 2-1/2 hours, rarely going past L11. Blind increases are consistent and range from 50% to 67%, averaging 59%. Average stack = 20bb after 75 minutes of play (after 50% of the total tournament run time has elapsed). Plenty of opportunity to play solid poker, and resulting re-buys will be a result of overzealous aggression, over-valuing weak hands, and genuine bad beats and cold deck hands, not from short-stacked shove-fests. And everybody will have an extra 15 minutes to re-buy. :)

I'd probably bump up the entry fee to $15 after making the switch and seeing how it plays out once or twice. And I'd ditch the 1/2-stack add-on, as it is a horrible value at the point they are being offered - just 5bb for half the cost of the original 200bb. Those chips are costing 20 times what they sold for in the starting stack, and 5bb will not make a notable difference in anybody's stack, no matter how big or small.
 
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If you do an add-on, I would typically make it the same cost of a rebuy for double the chips. This way a player can bust on the last hand before rebuys end, rebuy and then add-on and have a fighting chance after rebuys end with 30 bigs.
 
Thanks for the awesome suggestions @BGinGA . That looks like a way more friendly structure and will probably be a little easier on the newer guys. I hadn't considered the percentages of the blind increases before. I just kinda took what some friends used back when I lived in Oklahoma and tweaked it a little to fit our little game here in Indy. We'll definitely be incorporating your suggestions into our next game. You're the man! Thanks again, and thanks to everyone else for your insight as well.

And....GO SOONERS!
 
I run similar SnG (starting with 2k chips with base chip = 5) but our structure is slower (at least blinds progression) :

Our level duration is 20'.

5/10
5/15
10/20
15/30
20/40
30/60
40/80
-- color up 5's --
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
-- color up 25's --
200/400
300/600
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
--color up 100's --
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000

Usually we play 2000 chips and with no re-entry.
Sometimes we play 4000 chips with no re-entry or 2000 with one re-entry allowed during first 3 levels.
 
Great info. Thanks!

Not a fan of front-loaded formats, or structures that have massively wide ranges (25% to 150% blind increases in this example, averaging 90%). I'm guessing the events typically run about 2-1/2 hours, ending no later than L9 (with a total of 18bb in play). If it runs any later than that, you have some serious nits that don't understand short-stack tournament play.

Even starting with 200bb (which is pretty deep), the average stack is just 20bb after 3 blind levels -- an hour of play -- so essentially, nearly everybody is short-stacked at that point forward. It certainly doesn't encourage good play, reward poker skills, or benefit players by exposing them to real-world tournament conditions.

Imo, there are much better single-table structures that can finish in a 2-1/2 hour window. Here's one T5-base example:

T2000 stacks (200bb)
15-minute levels
lvl sb bb
L1 5 10
L2 10 15
L3 15 25
L4 20 40
L5 30 60
remove T5 chips, end re-buys
L6 50 100
L7 75 150
L8 125 250
remove T25 chips
L9 200 400
L10 300 600
L11 500 1000 ***
L12 800 1600
L13 1200 2400
L14 2000 4000

Typically runs about 2-1/2 hours, rarely going past L11. Blind increases are consistent and range from 50% to 67%, averaging 59%. Average stack = 20bb after 75 minutes of play (after 50% of the total tournament run time has elapsed). Plenty of opportunity to play solid poker, and resulting re-buys will be a result of overzealous aggression, over-valuing weak hands, and genuine bad beats and cold deck hands, not from short-stacked shove-fests. And everybody will have an extra 15 minutes to re-buy. :)

I'd probably bump up the entry fee to $15 after making the switch and seeing how it plays out once or twice. And I'd ditch the 1/2-stack add-on, as it is a horrible value at the point they are being offered - just 5bb for half the cost of the original 200bb. Those chips are costing 20 times what they sold for in the starting stack, and 5bb will not make a notable difference in anybody's stack, no matter how big or small.
 
We've been using this structure for years, it's rock solid. We start with T1200 with a T300 on time bonus. This works as a single table, or up to 20 players, with one re-entry and works well with deeper stacks as well if you like. We've gone up to T2000 with no issues.

We like to play a little deeper, but I would say the skill level in our game is higher than average - so guys aren't afraid to play big pots when they need to.

Starting stacks are:
20x T5
16x T25
7 x T100

20 minute levels

5/10
10/20
15/30
20/40
BREAK
30/60
40/80
60/120
BREAK - Remove 5s
75/150
100/200
150/300
BREAK
200/400
300/600 ***usually done here***
400/800
BREAK
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
1500/3000
 
As second level you can add a 5-15 level to avoid doubling the blinds. ;-)
For the rest pretty nice structure.
 
As second level you can add a 5-15 level to avoid doubling the blinds. ;-)
For the rest pretty nice structure.

The weekly tournaments at my local use a 500/1500 level because “there are no more T100 chips” and when I suggested ~not~ colouring up all the 100’s so you could smooth out the blinds I was met with blank stares. I hate hate hate it.

As a result I have a mental block on sb’s that aren’t 50% of the bb.

Granted 5/15 early is a lot different than 500/1500 late in a T5000 tourney, we’re ok with a 100% jump early to give us smoother blind jumps later on when it matters.
 
100% jumps should be avoided if possible, regardless of location. If early, it sorta makes the first level pointless.

And 5/15 and 500/1500 (and 25/75) are no different. You should be looking at the increase percentage of the total blinds, not just the big blind.
 
100% jumps should be avoided if possible, regardless of location. If early, it sorta makes the first level pointless.

In this circumstance, I don’t think you’ll convince me of that.

And 5/15 and 500/1500 (and 25/75) are no different. You should be looking at the increase percentage of the total blinds, not just the big blind.

I disagree. You don’t think going from:

500-1000
500-1500
1000-2000

Wouldn’t affect the way the SB plays their hand during that level? I’ve seen it happen hundreds of times. They nit up and it negatively affects action at the table.
 
Regarding early 100% increases: they quickly devalue the starting stack size, and in doing so, make the starting levels less important. Believe it or don't, but it can be proven mathematically.

You don’t think going from:

500-1000
500-1500
1000-2000

Wouldn’t affect the way the SB plays their hand during that level?
Perhaps to a degree on some borderline holdings, but it is relatively insignificant in relation to the overall play of the hand.

Looking at a typical blind structure with 40% average increases:

level A - 500/1000
level B - 500/1500 = 33% increase in blinds from previous level
level C - 1000/2000 = 50% increase in blinds from previous level
level D - 1500/3000 = 50% increase in blinds from previous level
level E - 2000/4000 = 33% increase in blinds from previous level

There is no difference in the change from level A to B versus the change from level D to E (both are 33% increases in the total amounts posted by each player), just as there is no difference in the change from level B to C compared to the change from level C to D (both are 50% increases in the total amounts posted by each player).

The fact that the small blind is 1/3 the size of the big blind in level B is rather irrelevant, and certainly has no significant impact on overall play (based on our historical records spanning over 12 years of tournaments). Even if the SB "nits up" (of which I have no data proof), that is but one player seated at the table -- who acts next-to-last -- and certainly doesn't affect the play or action at the table by all those players who act prior to his action. Similar data exists for blind structures where the SB is the same amount as the BB (1/1 or 100/100, for example), or when there is no SB at all. It just doesn't have a significant effect on play, especially when compared to all of the other variables that can affect the play of a hand.

We've been using this structure for years, it's rock solid. We start with T1200 with a T300 on time bonus.

20 minute levels

5/10
10/20
15/30
20/40
BREAK
30/60
40/80
60/120
BREAK - Remove 5s
75/150
100/200
150/300
BREAK
200/400
300/600 ***usually done here***
400/800
BREAK
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
1500/3000
It may be rock solid, but that doesn't mean that it cannot be improved upon. It starts with 150BB stacks -- not really considered deep stack in most circles -- and gets sliced to a table average of just 75BB after only 20 minutes, which results in some pretty rushed and short-stacked poker by level 3. It contains blind increases with a very wide range (25% to 100%, averaging 46%), and completes in roughly four hours plus breaks (about 4-1/2 hours with T2000 stacks or if playing two tables). There are certainly worse 4-hour T5-base structures out there, but there are some much better ones, too.

For example:

T3500 stacks (350BB)
15-minute blind levels

lvl sb bb
L1 5 10
L2 5 15
L3 10 20
L4 15 30
break
L5 20 40
L6 30 60
L7 40 80
L8 60 120
remove T5 chip
L9 75 150
L10 100 200
L11 150 300
L12 200 400
remove T25 chips
L13 300 600
L14 400 800
L15 600 1200
L16 800 1600 ***
remove T100 chips
L17 1000 2000
L18 1500 3000
L19 2000 4000
L20 3000 6000

A true deep-stack format with 350BB starting stacks, this four-hour format has an average blinds increase of 41% (most in a narrow and consistent 33%-50% range) and doesn't drop under 100BB until after an hour of play, giving players ample opportunity to play without short-stack pressure.
 
@BGinGA, this is the exact structure we use and it works pretty well.

Normal, we play it with 2000.
Sometimes we add a re-entry or we play with 4000.
And not very frequently we start with 1000, allow 2 re-entry and add one bounty per entry.
 
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That structure looks great, but conspicuously absent is a 500/1500 level. o_O :D

I think there is a balance to strike between pressure to play your stack, and ability to play your stack. We’ve found what works really well for us. YMMV.

I think starting deeper would render early levels more meaningless in our game than suffering one very early 100% jump in our structure as is. We want the ability to play pots early on, but also consequences for losing pots early. We also want re-entries to juice the total pot.

Next time you are in Saskatchewan let me know. There is an invitation to our game waiting for you. I think you’ll find you have a good time.
 
I think starting deeper would render early levels more meaningless in our game than suffering one very early 100% jump in our structure as is.
If you truly believe that -- especially given the evidence to the contrary -- then you really do not understand the dynamics generated by various blind formats and their relationship to various stack sizes.

If you really think that you (and your group) prefer to find yourselves playing with an average stack size of only 38BB just 60 minutes into a four hour event (and a 13BB average stack after 2 hours of play) versus an average stack size of 88BB at the same time point in the event, then I suggest that you try the latter format and take a subsequent poll of your players and their actual preferences, instead of relying on your perceived ones. Almost all skilled tournament players will strongly favor a deeper stack event with consistent blind increases, both of which help to minimize the effects of variance and luck and reward skill.

On the other hand, it's quite possible that your group prefers a shorter-stacked shovefest type of event that places more emphasis on luck and relies less on actual poker skill. YMMV. :)

Would love to play with you sometime and sincere thanks for the invitation, but it's pretty unlikely that you will find me intentionally visiting any place that far north anytime soon. I already served my hard time in the cold, bleak, and dreary northern climates, and have absolutely no desire to ever return. <insert shivering emoticon here>

Perhaps we will meet at a future PCF gathering somewhere south of the Mason-Dixon line, or online during one of the many PCF tournaments on PokerStars Home Games. (y) :thumbsup:
 
Oh for sure. I think we’ll try that structure out in one of our games, like I said, it looks great.

As for visiting Saskatchewan, c’mon now, it’s not that cold yet...

449BA4AC-3BD4-40C1-B2AB-52E1316E4A20.jpeg
 
Yeah, and i promise to just stick in the tip, too.... :D;)
 
Regarding early 100% increases: they quickly devalue the starting stack size, and in doing so, make the starting levels less important. Believe it or don't, but it can be proven mathematically.


Perhaps to a degree on some borderline holdings, but it is relatively insignificant in relation to the overall play of the hand.

Looking at a typical blind structure with 40% average increases:

level A - 500/1000
level B - 500/1500 = 33% increase in blinds from previous level
level C - 1000/2000 = 50% increase in blinds from previous level
level D - 1500/3000 = 50% increase in blinds from previous level
level E - 2000/4000 = 33% increase in blinds from previous level

There is no difference in the change from level A to B versus the change from level D to E (both are 33% increases in the total amounts posted by each player), just as there is no difference in the change from level B to C compared to the change from level C to D (both are 50% increases in the total amounts posted by each player).

The fact that the small blind is 1/3 the size of the big blind in level B is rather irrelevant, and certainly has no significant impact on overall play (based on our historical records spanning over 12 years of tournaments). Even if the SB "nits up" (of which I have no data proof), that is but one player seated at the table -- who acts next-to-last -- and certainly doesn't affect the play or action at the table by all those players who act prior to his action. Similar data exists for blind structures where the SB is the same amount as the BB (1/1 or 100/100, for example), or when there is no SB at all. It just doesn't have a significant effect on play, especially when compared to all of the other variables that can affect the play of a hand.


It may be rock solid, but that doesn't mean that it cannot be improved upon. It starts with 150BB stacks -- not really considered deep stack in most circles -- and gets sliced to a table average of just 75BB after only 20 minutes, which results in some pretty rushed and short-stacked poker by level 3. It contains blind increases with a very wide range (25% to 100%, averaging 46%), and completes in roughly four hours plus breaks (about 4-1/2 hours with T2000 stacks or if playing two tables). There are certainly worse 4-hour T5-base structures out there, but there are some much better ones, too.

For example:

T3500 stacks (350BB)
15-minute blind levels

lvl sb bb
L1 5 10
L2 5 15
L3 10 20
L4 15 30
break
L5 20 40
L6 30 60
L7 40 80
L8 60 120
remove T5 chip
L9 75 150
L10 100 200
L11 150 300
L12 200 400
remove T25 chips
L13 300 600
L14 400 800
L15 600 1200
L16 800 1600 ***
remove T100 chips
L17 1000 2000
L18 1500 3000
L19 2000 4000
L20 3000 6000

A true deep-stack format with 350BB starting stacks, this four-hour format has an average blinds increase of 41% (most in a narrow and consistent 33%-50% range) and doesn't drop under 100BB until after an hour of play, giving players ample opportunity to play without short-stack pressure.
Really like this structure. Similar to the one I just ran but we started with 2000 and had 20 minute levels. By the 4 hour mark we were right on pace with this structure. This helped me realize I had a few big percentage jumps though - mainly trying to remove T5 chips after first break. I realize now it’s not worth it and caused one huge 100% spike.

Thanks BGinGA! One question - I currently have slightly different structures for “9 or less players”, “10-15 players”, and “16-18 players” the latter being more like 10-18 plus rebuys. Probably overkill but so far I’ve only ran the middle structure.

Is there a point where you would adjust this based on total chips in play? As in assuming there are X rebuys before first break or if there is a full two tables instead of one? The idea keeping this close to a 4 hour tournament.
 
Is there a point where you would adjust this based on total chips in play? As in assuming there are X rebuys before first break or if there is a full two tables instead of one? The idea keeping this close to a 4 hour tournament.
The total time that a given tournament blind structure will run can be altered by modifying one (or more) of three main variables: number of players, starting stack size, and blind level time. You can also add or delete levels to change the total run time, but that changes the structure, and is something I typically avoid if possible.

A tournament with competent players will typically end no later than the blind level when there are 20 total big blinds on the table, regardless of the three variables above. You can use this information to calculate the change to the total run time when one or more of those variables change.

For example, if you want a given structure to run 4 hours for 20 players with 10K stacks using 15 minute blind levels, then that means that there must be 20 big blinds on the table at the ending level when the the big blind amount is T10000 (20 players x 10000 stacks / 20 big blinds). That also means that if the total time is 4 hours or 240 minutes, the blind level where that will occur is Level 16 (240 minutes,/ 15 minutes = 16 levels).

I typically (but not always) prefer to alter the blind level times to fit the total time requirements for a specific number of players, rather than alter the stack size (which also changes the number of starting bb). Using the information above to calculate the needed blind level times for a 4-hour tournament for just 16 players (vs 20) with 10K stacks, we see that:
  • the ending level will occur when the big blind amount is T8000 (16 players x 10000 stacks / 20 big blinds)
  • if that T8000 big blind amount occurs at L15, then the blind level times needed to finish in 4 hours (at L15) is 16 minutes (240 minutes / 15 levels = 16 minutes)
Or for 10 players with 10K stacks, running 4 hours:
  • the ending level will occur when the big blind amount is T5000 (10 players x 10000 stacks / 20 big blinds)
  • if that T5000 big blind amount occurs at L13, then the blind level times needed to finish in four hours (at L13) is 18.5 minutes (240 minutes / 13 levels = 18.5 minutes)
Note that none of those calculations above accounted for re-buys, but you can estimate an average of 20-25% re-buys for most tournaments and add those extra chip amounts to the total chips expected to be on the table (and perform your 20 big blinds calculation based on those numbers). I've found that using 20% re-buys seems to work best when estimating the effect on increased tournament run time. For example, let's add re-buys to that last 10-player 10K tournament:
  • the ending level will occur when the big blind amount is T6000 (10 players x 10000 stacks = 100000 + 20000 rebuys = 120000 / 20 big blinds)
  • if that T6000 big blind amount occurs at L14, then the blind level times needed to finish with re-buys in four hours (at L14) is 17 minutes (240 minutes / 14 levels = 17 minutes)
Just take your proven 4 hour blind structure, and make the necessary changes to the blind level times (based on number of players) to keep your total tournament run time to 4 hours.
 
The total time that a given tournament blind structure will run can be altered by modifying one (or more) of three main variables: number of players, starting stack size, and blind level time. You can also add or delete levels to change the total run time, but that changes the structure, and is something I typically avoid if possible.

A tournament with competent players will typically end no later than the blind level when there are 20 total big blinds on the table, regardless of the three variables above. You can use this information to calculate the change to the total run time when one or more of those variables change.

For example, if you want a given structure to run 4 hours for 20 players with 10K stacks using 15 minute blind levels, then that means that there must be 20 big blinds on the table at the ending level when the the big blind amount is T10000 (20 players x 10000 stacks / 20 big blinds). That also means that if the total time is 4 hours or 240 minutes, the blind level where that will occur is Level 16 (240 minutes,/ 15 minutes = 16 levels).

I typically (but not always) prefer to alter the blind level times to fit the total time requirements for a specific number of players, rather than alter the stack size (which also changes the number of starting bb). Using the information above to calculate the needed blind level times for a 4-hour tournament for just 16 players (vs 20) with 10K stacks, we see that:
  • the ending level will occur when the big blind amount is T8000 (16 players x 10000 stacks / 20 big blinds)
  • if that T8000 big blind amount occurs at L15, then the blind level times needed to finish in 4 hours (at L15) is 16 minutes (240 minutes / 15 levels = 16 minutes)
Or for 10 players with 10K stacks, running 4 hours:
  • the ending level will occur when the big blind amount is T5000 (10 players x 10000 stacks / 20 big blinds)
  • if that T5000 big blind amount occurs at L13, then the blind level times needed to finish in four hours (at L13) is 18.5 minutes (240 minutes / 13 levels = 18.5 minutes)
Note that none of those calculations above accounted for re-buys, but you can estimate an average of 20-25% re-buys for most tournaments and add those extra chip amounts to the total chips expected to be on the table (and perform your 20 big blinds calculation based on those numbers). I've found that using 20% re-buys seems to work best when estimating the effect on increased tournament run time. For example, let's add re-buys to that last 10-player 10K tournament:
  • the ending level will occur when the big blind amount is T6000 (10 players x 10000 stacks = 100000 + 20000 rebuys = 120000 / 20 big blinds)
  • if that T6000 big blind amount occurs at L14, then the blind level times needed to finish with re-buys in four hours (at L14) is 17 minutes (240 minutes / 14 levels = 17 minutes)
Just take your proven 4 hour blind structure, and make the necessary changes to the blind level times (based on number of players) to keep your total tournament run time to 4 hours.
This is fantastic - thanks for taking the time! I like the idea of adjusting the blind level times instead of monkeying with structure. I’ll be using this going forward and see how it goes. Thinking back the last few tournaments, 20% rebuy is pretty spot on. Cheers!
 

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