Cash Game Mixed Cash Games (it's all about the games!!) (1 Viewer)

[churlbut18]

It could just be me, but there seems to be a lot of mixed cash game discussions lately. The recent polls also seem to indicate that the PCF members are favoring cash games over tournaments. And the monster limit sets that members are obtaining with 800-1000+ of a single denomination seem to be on the rise.

So it begs the question...

For those of you who have experience hosting/playing in mixed cash games...

1) What are your games of choice?
2) What are the most popular games in your circle?
3) Do you change the games per orbit? Do you use dealer's choice and change games as the dealer button moves?
4) Do you keep the same betting structure (i.e. limit) for all games or do you change from limit, to pot limit, to spread, etc.?
5) Would you ever introduce a no-limit game into this format for only one orbit or one button? (I wouldn't)
5) Do you play games with wildcards?
6) Do you stick to the more traditional games such as HORSE?
7) Do you introduce draw games or non-traditional community/flop games (i.e. baseball, black mariah, criss cross, etc.)?
8) Do you use antes? player antes? dealer antes?
8) and anything else of interest as it relates to mixed cash games...

I, myself, am leaning towards hosting a mixed cash game, with the following 3 games, all using the same $2/$4 limit structure so that my limit set of 900 x $1's and 100 x $25's can support all games without the need for fracs and other denominations:

1) Limit Hold'em ($2/$4)
2) Omaha High ($2/$4)
3) 7 Card Stud ($2 dealer ante, $1 bring in, $2 small bet (1st 2 rounds), $4 big bet (last 3 rounds))

This thread is about the games and betting structures. Not necessarily the starting stacks, set breakdowns, etc...

Very interested to hear from the forum on what works.

Thanks,

 

[jbutler]

JFC I feel like I'd be filling out a tax form if I responded to all that.

I'll just say that my current favorite cash games are:

Big O Hi and Hi/Lo (PL)
Tahoe Hi and Hi/Lo (PL)
Drawmaha (PL)
Omaha Hi and Hi/Lo (PL)
Double Board Omaha Hi (PL)
SOHE (PL)
Badugi (FL)
2-7 TD (FL)
2-7 SD (NL)
A-5 TD (FL)
Badacey (FL)
Badeucey (FL)
Cross (FL)

All my current regular home games use a fix rotation and are played $1/2 or $1/3 for PL and NL games and $5/10, $5/10/15, or $10/20 for FL games.

The only games above that never make it into the rotation of my current home games are Drawmaha, SOHE, Double Board Omaha, Badacey, and Badeucey, but I think at least the last two will soon be introduced as people get more comfortable with the draw format.

 

[moose]

I like your rotation. When we play limit games, we add a kill. 1/2 kill to $3/6 or full kill to $4/8.

I hate counting pots so kill qualifier for us is two wins in a row - if you see a flop or 4th street minimum, or scooping on split pot games. In dealer's choice games, we switch on orbit+1 so that would end the kill but for fixed rotation games, if the kill is on then the game stays until the kill ends and then we switch the game.

 

[pltrgyst]

>1) What are your games of choice?

Any from a list of about 20 on my game's Web page. New games added as they become popular among the group.

>3) Do you change the games per orbit? Do you use dealer's choice and change games as the dealer button moves?

Per orbit +1 hand. We use a second button to track where the choice will be made.

>4) Do you keep the same betting structure (i.e. limit) for all games or do you change from limit, to pot limit, to spread, etc.?

No. It can change for each game called.

>5) Would you ever introduce a no-limit game into this format for only one orbit or one button? (I wouldn't)

We do it all the time.

>5) Do you play games with wildcards?

Never.

>8) Do you use antes? player antes? dealer antes?

Yes, as needed.

>8) and anything else of interest as it relates to mixed cash games...

We usually play .25/.50 or .50/1 for the NL and PL games, and 3/6 for limit.

p.s.: You guys in New England count funny... :

 

[churlbut18]

>1) What are your games of choice?

Any from a list of about 20 on my game's Web page. New games added as they become popular among the group.

>3) Do you change the games per orbit? Do you use dealer's choice and change games as the dealer button moves?

Per orbit +1 hand. We use a second button to track where the choice will be made.

>4) Do you keep the same betting structure (i.e. limit) for all games or do you change from limit, to pot limit, to spread, etc.?

No.

>5) Would you ever introduce a no-limit game into this format for only one orbit or one button? (I wouldn't)

We do it all the time.

>5) Do you play games with wildcards?

Never.

>8) Do you use antes? player antes? dealer antes?

Yes, as needed.

>8) and anything else of interest as it relates to mixed cash games...

We usually play .25/.50 or .50/1 for the NL and PL games, and 3/6 for limit.

p.s.: You guys in New England count funny... :

I'm curious what's on this list of 20 games. Could you rattle off a few of the favorites?

 

[churlbut18]

JFC I feel like I'd be filling out a tax form if I responded to all that.

I'll just say that my current favorite cash games are:

Big O Hi and Hi/Lo (PL)
Tahoe Hi and Hi/Lo (PL)
Drawmaha (PL)
Omaha Hi and Hi/Lo (PL)
Double Board Omaha Hi (PL)
SOHE (PL)
Badugi (FL)
2-7 TD (FL)
2-7 SD (NL)
A-5 TD (FL)
Badacey (FL)
Badeucey (FL)
Cross (FL)

All my current regular home games use a fix rotation and are played $1/2 or $1/3 for PL and NL games and $5/10, $5/10/15, or $10/20 for FL games.

The only games above that never make it into the rotation of my current home games are Drawmaha, SOHE, Double Board Omaha, Badacey, and Badeucey, but I think at least the last two will soon be introduced as people get more comfortable with the draw format.

Ok. I'm going to have to read up on the rules for like 3/4 of these.

 

[Shaggy]

There's a link in this thread for some laminated cards that Abby made some years back... great info in the thread in general.
http://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/mixed-game-plaques.6514/#post-66075

 

[bergs]

Favorite games:

Limit or Pot Limit:
- PLO
- Double Board PLO
- PLO8
- Big O
- Big O8
- TAHOE
- TAHOE8
- SOHE
- Drawmaha
- Pineapple (I don't hate it like I used to)

Limit Only:
- Criss-cross
- Razz
- Stud8 (never just Stud hi if under 75 years old)
- 2-7TD
- Badugi (because repotting and drawing 3 is lololol)

NEVER A WILD CARD! It sucks enough losing 500bb at one of these games, to lose to a wild card would be punching concrete with head tilting.

 

[keshaldra]

1) What are your games of choice? I like a mix that has a roughly even mix of flop, draw, and stud games. Something like HORSE + 2-7 + Badugi
2) What are the most popular games in your circle? In my circle, it's almost exclusively NLHE. PLO is very popular at the Cleveland casino. Beyond that, that's it.
3) Do you change the games per orbit? Do you use dealer's choice and change games as the dealer button moves? Yep, change per orbit, usually forced rotation, but sometimes dealer's choice.
4) Do you keep the same betting structure (i.e. limit) for all games or do you change from limit, to pot limit, to spread, etc.? I prefer to stick with exclusively limit for mixed games, but in the event that we do switch them, PL and NL are at 1/4 the stakes of limit. So 4/8 becomes 1/2, etc.
5) Would you ever introduce a no-limit game into this format for only one orbit or one button? (I wouldn't) If everyone wants to, I'm not opposed to it, but I don't prefer it.
5) Do you play games with wildcards? No.
6) Do you stick to the more traditional games such as HORSE? Yes, or close to it. I don't like the games to get too crazy, because imo it starts to take out the skill factor when you start playing games that introduce random elements (like extra streets, etc.)
7) Do you introduce draw games or non-traditional community/flop games (i.e. baseball, black mariah, criss cross, etc.)? Draw, yes. Examples you listed, no. Those get a little too crazy for me.
8) Do you use antes? player antes? dealer antes? Antes in stud games. I'd like to use antes in all games, but my group won't do it.
8) and anything else of interest as it relates to mixed cash games...

I, myself, am leaning towards hosting a mixed cash game, with the following 3 games, all using the same $2/$4 limit structure so that my limit set of 900 x $1's and 100 x $25's can support all games without the need for fracs and other denominations:

1) Limit Hold'em ($2/$4)
2) Omaha High ($2/$4)
3) 7 Card Stud ($2 dealer ante, $1 bring in, $2 small bet (1st 2 rounds), $4 big bet (last 3 rounds))

This thread is about the games and betting structures. Not necessarily the starting stacks, set breakdowns, etc...

Very interested to hear from the forum on what works.

Thanks,

 

[churlbut18]

Thanks to those of you who have posted so far. I've done some reading on the games and here is what I'm leaning towards, preferring to stay clear of hi-lo split pot games, pot/spread limit games, and wild cards in an effort to start simple with some basic variations of hold'em and stud.

Flop Games:

Limit Hold'em
Limit Omaha Hi
Pineapple
Crazy Pineapple
Tahoe Hi (Lazy Pineapple)
Super Hold'em

Stud Games:

Limit Seven Card Stud
Limit Mississippi Stud
Limit Seven Card Stud Roll Your Own (RYO)

Notes:

-all games based on $2/$4 limit structure
-orbit +1 hand rotation
-stud games to include dealer ante and bring in

 

[pltrgyst]

I'm curious what's on this list of 20 games. Could you rattle off a few of the favorites?

B = badugi
Bi = binglaha
C, C8 = Chowaha (hi, hi-lo8)
Cp = crazy Pineapple
D = five-card draw (hi, lo)
DC = Dealer's Choice
Db = double board hold 'em
FLH = Florida hold'em (must use 2 hole cards)
H = hold'em
Lp = lazy Pineapple
L7 = lowball, SoCal style (2-7, single-draw,7s rule)
M = Murder
Mx = Mixed
O,O8 = omaha (hi, hi-lo8)
Oc = OmaChow (hi, hi-lo8)
P = Pineapple
R = razz (seven-card lowball, wheel low)
S, S8 = seven-card stud (hi, hi-lo8, double qualifier)
S5, S6-five-card stud (hi, six-card optional)
Sc = scrotum
T = triple draw (7-2)
NL = No Limit
PL = Pot Limit
SL - Spread Limit
L = Limit
TOC = H/O8/S

 

[BGinGA]

Ok. I'm going to have to read up on the rules for like 3/4 of these.

Or just show up for a PCF meet-up sometime. They don't call it the circus table for nuttin'.

 

[courage]

My current rotation is by orbit with a dealer and is a mix of NL and PL games.

I'd encourage you to nix Super Hold'em. I'm not a fan of cooler games where a player can flop quads and there's not even a pair on the board. Also not a fan of wild card games.

Lazy Pineapple
Omaha
Big O
NLHE
Crazy Pineapple
Tahoe
PLO8
5 Card Omaha

 

[Psypher1000]

1) What are your games of choice?

We play dealer's choice, and games range from 5 card draw to Night Baseball. If they can teach it, they can call it. The one caveat is the showdown is best five cards (in other words, Badugi is right out).

2) What are the most popular games in your circle?

7-Stud variants and Texas Hold'em.

Do you change the games per orbit? Do you use dealer's choice and change games as the dealer button moves?

During my dealer's choice micro-stakes spread limit games we change the game every deal. If it's anything other than micro-stakes spread limit, we change the game every orbit+1.

Do you keep the same betting structure (i.e. limit) for all games or do you change from limit, to pot limit, to spread, etc.?

The same betting structure is maintained in the micro-stakes spread limit. In orbit+1 it typically stays the same, but sometimes the game-caller will vary it.

Would you ever introduce a no-limit game into this format for only one orbit or one button? (I wouldn't)

If I were playing a fixed- or spread- limit session, I probably wouldn't open it up to a NL format for an orbit, no.

Do you play games with wildcards?

In the micro-stakes spread-limit, yes - we allow up to two ranks/8 total cards to be wilds. In more "serious" poker, not a chance unless the specific game called for a bug. Even then, I'm not a fan b/c you have to keep them available in case they're called for and fish them out when the game is done.

Do you stick to the more traditional games such as HORSE?

If we were playing a more serious mixed cash game, we'd likely stick to something like HORSE or the dice game (roll a die & play a game based on the number that comes up)

Do you introduce draw games or non-traditional community/flop games (i.e. baseball, black mariah, criss cross, etc.)?

In micro-stakes, as long as it's a 5-card showdown, anything goes (but only in micro-stakes). I see no reason why draw games couldn't or shouldn't be played in a mixed cash game.

Do you use antes? player antes? dealer antes?

In micro-stakes, yes - dealer ante's for the table (that way nobody has to wonder who ante'd and who didn't). In more serious games...typically we stick with blinds.

 

[churlbut18]

My current rotation is by orbit with a dealer and is a mix of NL and PL games.

I'd encourage you to nix Super Hold'em. I'm not a fan of cooler games where a player can flop quads and there's not even a pair on the board. Also not a fan of wild card games.

Lazy Pineapple
Omaha
Big O
NLHE
Crazy Pineapple
Tahoe
PLO8
5 Card Omaha

Good point. Super Hold'em is out.

 

[churlbut18]

Anyone have any success with Mississippi Stud (removing betting round between 4th and 5th street and dealing last card up, making it closer to hold'em)?

 

[churlbut18]

Good point. Super Hold'em is out.

Although how would these 3 hole cards differ from the 3 hole cards in seven card stud?

 

[ChaosRock]

If I could get some of my players to be more open about mixed games, this is the list of games I'd implement. All games either No Limit or Pot Limit:

2 cards: Hold'em
3 cards: Lazy Pineapple
4 cards: Omaha (+ double board), O8
5 cards: BigO (+ double board), BigO8, Tahoe, Tahoe8, Courchevel, Courchevel8, Dramaha, 27SD and Scrotum
6 cards: SOHE

I also love Limit low ball games: 27TD, Badugi, Baducey, Badacey and variants... I would add some of the hi-low Omaha variants played Limit for a Limit poker night...

No a big fan of Stud and variants 'yet'... I really hope get there one day...

Hosting a WSOP Player's Championship rotation would be fantastic...

 

[palindrome]

Although how would these 3 hole cards differ from the 3 hole cards in seven card stud?

The biggest difference is that it's a limit game and will only cost the loser one extra bet on the end. You can be drawing dead on the second street in Super and face huge bets the whole way.

 

[churlbut18]

If I could get some of my players to be more open about mixed games, this is the list of games I'd implement. All games either No Limit or Pot Limit:

2 cards: Hold'em
3 cards: Lazy Pineapple
4 cards: Omaha (+ double board), O8
5 cards: BigO (+ double board), BigO8, Tahoe, Tahoe8, Courchevel, Courchevel8, Dramaha, 27SD and Scrotum
6 cards: SOHE

I also love Limit low ball games: 27TD, Badugi, Baducey, Badacey and variants... I would add some of the hi-low Omaha variants played Limit for a Limit poker night...

No a big fan of Stud and variants 'yet'... I really hope get there one day...

Hosting a WSOP Player's Championship rotation would be fantastic...

The sources I read indicated Tahoe is Lazy Pineapple but based on your list, do you view them differently?

 

[ChaosRock]

The sources I read indicated Tahoe is Lazy Pineapple but based on your list, do you view them differently?

Depending on the region of the country, Tahoe is either Lazy Pineapple or BigO in which you can either play 2 cards or all 5 cards dealt to you.

 

[churlbut18]

Okay. Based on the feedback received and reading through many of the older threads regarding mixed cash games, here is where I'm currently netting out.

First, a few boundaries. This is mostly a NLHE tournament crew, so I want to take gradual steps as we move into the mixed cash game arena.

Therefore, my current requirements are as follows:

1) no draw games
2) no split pot games (hi-lo)
3) no wild cards
4) sticking with slight variations of the traditional Hold'em and Seven-Card Stud games


Betting Structure:

$2/$4 Limit
Buy In $100 (the standard 25 big bets)
Dealer Ante $2 (for stud games)
Bring In $1 (for stud games)
Small Bet $2
Big Bet $4
Note: supported by a set of 800 x $1's and 100 x $25's

OR

$1/$2 Limit
Buy In $100 (I know this is double the 25 big bets but I want to keep the larger starting stacks)
Dealer Ante $1 (for stud games)
Bring In $0.50 (for stud games)
Small Bet $1
Big Bet $2
Note: supported by a set of 100 x $0.25's, 800 x $1's, and 100 x $25's (thinking I would give each player 8-12 quarters for the bring in and the rest in $1's???)
Option: could remove the bring in and have highest up card lead betting to avoid having to introduce fracs (is this a valid option???)


Each game played for 1 orbit in a pre-defined rotation (over time, we'll move to dealer's choice)
Note: can't really do dealer's choice out of the gate because this crowd doesn't know the games yet, so I think I'll need to start each orbit with a new game


Community Games:

Hold'em
Pineapple
Crazy Pineapple
Tahoe (Lazy Pineapple)
Criss-Cross (maybe, starting to get crazier)
Chowaha (maybe, starting to get crazier)
Omaha Hi
Big O Hi (maybe)

Stud Games:

Seven-Card Stud
Mississippi Stud
Roll Your Own (up card)
Super Stud / Pitch & Bitch RYO
High Chicago (high spade in hole splits pot) - on the fence about this one, see question below


Questions:

1) For the seven-card stud games, if I drop the betting structure to $1/$2, is it better to introduce some fracs for the bring in, or simply forgo the bring in and have the highest card showing lead out the betting? And if there is a tie, break that tie with the ranked suit? What would that order be from highest to lowest?

2) In a game like High Chicago where a high spade in the hole would split the pot, there is nothing preventing the player with the Ace of Spades in the hole to simply cap each and every betting round because they have a guaranteed split (similarly, if the Ace is on the board and they have the King, etc...). Does this cause problems or is this simply par for the course with a game like this? On the fence about this one and this would be my only split pot game.

3) Thoughts on the structure above? PCF approved?

 

[courage]

If you're worried about the transition, I wouldn't try to include all that, just do a game with alternating orbits of Omaha and nlhe.

Maybe do stud games on a different night, or after all players have retired and have their social security checks.

Par for the course at high/low Chicago I'm afraid.

 

[churlbut18]

I could do away with the stud games I guess, but definitely want to stick to limit vs. NL...

I figured the Pineapple, Crazy Pineapple, and Lazy Pineapple variations would be extremely easy transitions but would add some nice variety at the same time...

So maybe I simplify and go to HOP (Hold'em, Omaha Hi, Pineapple)? Pineapple would include Crazy and Lazy too.

 

[palindrome]

So maybe I simplify and go to HOP (Hold'em, Omaha Hi, Pineapple)? Pineapple would include Crazy and Lazy too.

I agree with Courage, you will want to simplify the list. What you have above is pretty good for an introduction.

Also be prepared for push back against a limit betting structure. Most of your players won't understand you are trying to protect them. This is even more likely to be true since you have a pool of tournament players where bluffing is a bigger part of the game. They won't want the big bet bluff to be taken away from them.

 

[churlbut18]

Agreed. And in addition to protecting them (meaning their stack won't be on the line every hand), I'll also position the benefits of a cash game as follows.

1) players can arrive and buy in at any time (no strict start/end time)
2) players can reload at any time and as many times (so they can play all night if they chose rather than sitting on the sidelines)
3) players can cash out for what ever they have remaining at the end of the night (this is not a winner takes all format)

Along with the fact that a limit structure offers a more friendly atmosphere among friends...

 

[churlbut18]

@jbutler , @bergs

Both of you guys list Criss-Cross... I've seen a few variations... Can you briefly describe how you play it... The deal, the board layout, the play, final hand, etc...

Thanks,

 

[jbutler]

@jbutler , @bergs

Both of you guys list Criss-Cross... I've seen a few variations... Can you briefly describe how you play it... The deal, the board layout, the play, final hand, etc...

Thanks,

I started this thread about it a while back which has a limited discussion about game play and strategy. Here's how I described the way we play it in a limit format:

the game proceeds as follows:

- each player is dealt four hole cards
- a betting round occurs beginning to the left of the button (there are no blinds or antes)
- each betting round is force bet; i.e., you must either bet, call, raise, or fold - no checking
- after the first betting round, the board is dealt - five cards in a cross pattern as pictured below - and one of the four outer cards is turned face up

- another betting round then occurs, but action begins on the player two to the left of the button (i.e., the person who was previously second to act)
- after the second betting round, a second card is turned face up; the card turns must be clockwise or counterclockwise from the first (i.e., it can't be across the center card)
- a third betting round occurs; again, action begins on the person who would previously have been second to act (i.e., now the third player to the left of the button)
- a third card is then turned face up, moving around the outer cards in whatever direction the dealer moved previously (i.e., the card across from the first card turned)
- another betting round, action beginning on the fourth player to the left of the button
- a fourth card is turned - the final outer card
- another betting round, action beginning on the fifth player to the left of the button
- the final card - center - is turned
- a final betting round occurs, action beginning on the sixth player to the left of the button
- the pot is split between the best high hand and the best low hand - 8 or better - playing either the vertical or the horizontal board
- players can use 2, 3, or all 4 cards

the betting limits in our game are $5/5/5/10/10/20 and caps at five bets when the pot is multi-way (unlimited raises heads-up).

 

[churlbut18]

I started this thread about it a while back which has a limited discussion about game play and strategy. Here's how I described the way we play it in a limit format:

Thanks!

Interesting that it is 4 cards down and rotating opening player (never seen that before).

I was thinking of using the same cross board concept but playing the game as a much closer variant to Hold'em.

- small blind / big blind
- 2 cards down
- maybe skip bet between initial deal and 1st board card to make 5 betting rounds instead of 6?
- play board either way
- no wilds

I think this is closer to what @BGinGA suggested in your original thread.

Does anyone see any issues with this or play it this way yourself?

Thoughts on the 5-6 betting rounds?

 

[jbutler]

Thanks!

Interesting that it is 4 cards down and rotating opening player (never seen that before).

I was thinking of using the same cross board concept but playing the game as a much closer variant to Hold'em.

- small blind / big blind
- 2 cards down
- maybe skip bet between initial deal and 1st board card to make 5 betting rounds instead of 6?
- play board either way
- no wilds

I think this is closer to what @BGinGA suggested in your original thread.

Does anyone see any issues with this or play it this way yourself?

Thoughts on the 5-6 betting rounds?

We've played it with blinds and I think that's preferable if the group has never played a rotating, force bet structure before. Personally I think it would be a boring game with 2 cards and I think the force betting aspect is one of the rules that makes it such an interesting game. Plus most older players will be very comfortable with force bet games as they were much more common in home games before the NLHE explosion. The board plays either way in the original way the game is spread so that's fine. Making it 5 or 6 betting rounds shouldn't make a ton of difference, but personally I prefer 6.

So I suppose if you're trying to adapt it to be more player-friendly, switch to a blind structure and remove the rotation, but keep it at 4 cards per player and keep the force bet.