Mind the Rake (1 Viewer)

[fish72s]

I played a few hours this weekend at the Palm Beach Kennel Card room and this situation came up.
Feel free to comment on this particular incident or post your own.
In this $1/$2 hand there are 1 or 2 limpers and then a middle position raise to $7. PBKC has a stupid '$2 button blind' and so there is now at most $16 in the pot.
I am in the cutoff with AK and raise $25 on top. It fold to the MP raiser who says "I needed some callers" and turns over QJs. I start to pull in my pot and get scolded by the dealer for my no-no since she hadn't pulled out the rake and now the chips were in one pile.. She then proceeds to take $2 for the bad beat and $4 (out of a $5 max) for the rake.
Like most people I don't normally pay attention to the rake but this seemed excessive. I was pretty sure that my raise should not get raked and so I asked. She said no and then scolded me again for mixing up the chips. I tell her she just took $6 out of a $23 (at most) pot when it should have been $4 ($2+$2). I pressed the issue mildly for a few minutes until the issued died down. Then I won a decent hand and obviously did not tip her. The next tip she got she gave to me. I said 'thank you' and then for the 4th time she scolded me for trying to grab the pot and this kind of ticked me off.
Sure, its only $2 but I consider this to be a major mistake. This is arguable the MAIN responsibility a dealer has. About 10 minutes later I think that a dealer took out the $2 bad beat twice. I not sure really; I could easily have been mistaken. But that kind of the point. If people start questioning if the casino is stealing from them, then there are big problems. As a player, I don't want to feel like I have to keep an eye on the dealer to make sure they are doing their job.
For the record, I don't think this was intentional. I just think she was a bad dealer and when she saw a pile of chips she just took out a $4 rake without thinking what she was doing.

 

[phaze12]

2 bucks for a bad beat in a 1/2 game ??? that in it self seems a little much. i hate bad beat jackpots.

 

[fish72s]

2 bucks for a bad beat in a 1/2 game ??? that in it self seems a little much. i hate bad beat jackpots.

I think it was $1 for the bad beat and $1 for some other promotional thing they had going.

 

[phaze12]

still, what happens in limped blind vs blind hand? 1, 1, and 1 outta 4 in the pot? check down = 1 dollar won?

now i know why i always chop when its folded around and im in the blind. never look, just chop.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Why would you pull in the chips; you should always wait for the dealer to push them to you.

 

[DrStrange]

I think player are always wise to watch the rake being taken. If you see something wrong, say something to the floor in case the issue is poor dealer training. Which is always plausible when you figure that there are rules for a bad beat drop, special promotion drop, and rules about which bets are considered "in the pot" for regular raking.

This is extra important at games where the rakes just go in a hole rather than being held in open sight until the hand is finished. Underground games have a reputation for over raking, sometimes by a lot.

In the OP, he is playing at a $5 + $2 table. Some portion of the +2 will come back to the players, but I wouldn't be shocked for that portion to be something like $0.25 (it all depends on state law, but a lot of these promotional drops can go to ANY player - say the big action slot players.) OP is "paying" something like $15/hr to play in this game. If ever you wonder why you don't win playing at a casino even though you are a big winner at a home game - well you know why. Taking $15/hour from most people's win rate makes them a loser.

Home poker for the win! -=- DrStrange

 

[phaze12]

sorry i got off track. concerning dealers. they are just people. some like their job, some hate it and even worse some just dont care. also some are dealing different stakes, so it is always a good idea to keep an eye on what the dealer is doing.

when most make a mistake its just that, a mistake. but ask anyone that has owned or oversaw (is that a word) a poker room, there are always people out there that will take advantage of a situation if they can. the cameras help, but most are not as high quality as you would think. and if they think they can get away with it, they will try.

 

[jbutler]

i'm with you fish. you have to watch this stuff. i would say 10% of the poker dealers in a given room are competent. most of the floors aren't that much better, but at least they have a little more experience.

people will often talk about how you have to watch out for dirtbag behavior from players, but regularly defer to dealers when we really should be equally vigilant in watching both groups. as you said, it's almost never intentional, but having a slow or incompetent dealer is to the significant detriment of any game.

 

[fish72s]

Why would you pull in the chips; you should always wait for the dealer to push them to you.

I don't win very many pots so I don't have much experience with raking in chips.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

You also don't have much experience pushing chips. Let the pros do it.

 

[jbutler]

should have mentioned in my post earlier that by far the most common mistake i've seen dealers make - and the one which most profoundly affects our hourly - is miscounting an all-in and a call. you absolutely have to watch like a hawk when the dealer is counting down your bet/call as well as your opponents' bets/calls.

this is probably the one scenario in which i do intervene even if not in the hand. i'm not about to insert myself into the equation for a $5 difference, but i've seen dealers run down dirty stacks of $25 chips without realizing it and i will speak up in that instance.

 

[Mental Nomad]

If I recall my rules properly, any live bet is technically part of the pot, whether or not it's called.

That being said, most card rooms do not rake an uncalled bet - it doesn't just look greedy, it can be rather silly, especially in a NL game. In a uncalled pot (no limpers), if the button or small blind choose to steal the blinds with a large bet, it's somewhat absurd for them to be raked more than the actual blinds they're stealin! And a quick resolution to a low-action hand gets the table to the next hand quicker, which is good for the players and good for the house (because low-action hands take time and don't generate rake.)

But as always, any given house may have different rules on whether uncalled bets are raked... although in NJ, there is a state law that says:

An uncalled final bet shall not be considered part of the pot for purposes of calculating the amount of rake

The decision about whether or not an uncalled bet is raked can tell you if you're in a money-grubbing house, but that's not the dealer's fault. On the other hand, if the dealer is just making a mistake and over-raking, then the dealer's just making a mistake. They're not cheating, and they don't get any cut of the rake - they're just screwing up. Players should pay attention to protect themselves from dealer error in the rake, just like they protect themselves from dealer errors on other things.

Lastly... in a professionally-dealt game in a casino or card room, you should never be pulling the pot. It's always the dealer's job to push the pot. Until they push, you no touchee. They were right to call you out on that, every time.

 

[k9dr]

I have questioned the rake before at my local card room too. It is a 10% $5 max + $2 jackpot drop. I assumed they take $1 at $10, $1 at $20, etc. What they do is take the second $1 when the pot exceeds $10, and the third $1 when the pot exceeds $20, etc thereby maximizing the effective rake on low dollar pots. On a $21 pot they would take $3 in rake + $2 jackpot drop or almost 24% rake.

At least it is no flop, no drop.

 

[phaze12]

nomand +1

 

[Mental Nomad]

And +1 to DrStrange's comments about underground games needing to be watched, especially if they drop the rake while the hand is in action - that's why legit houses pull the rake aside and only drop it after the pot is pushed - keeps the whole thing visible and fixable in case there's an error.

Also, +1 to jbutler's comments about miscounted all-ins being the biggest error. All-ins, side pots, and split pots are big sources of "honest" errors; incompetent dealers feel the most pressure to get it over with quickly and are the most liable to make a mistake.

 

[phaze12]

way back when, foxwoods in conn used to just charge you $5 per person every half hour. (ahh the good old days) then they figured out they could make more money raking every pot.

 

[QuiQuog]

I'm not familiar with how poker rooms operate. Are they supposed to rake bets that aren't called? What were the mistakes?

 

[fish72s]

If I recall my rules properly, any live bet is technically part of the pot, whether or not it's called.

That being said, most card rooms do not rake an uncalled bet - it doesn't just look greedy, it can be rather silly, especially in a NL game. In a uncalled pot (no limpers), if the button or small blind choose to steal the blinds with a large bet, it's somewhat absurd for them to be raked more than the actual blinds they're stealin! And a quick resolution to a low-action hand gets the table to the next hand quicker, which is good for the players and good for the house (because low-action hands take time and don't generate rake.)

But as always, any given house may have different rules on whether uncalled bets are raked... although in NJ, there is a state law that says:



The decision about whether or not an uncalled bet is raked can tell you if you're in a money-grubbing house, but that's not the dealer's fault. On the other hand, if the dealer is just making a mistake and over-raking, then the dealer's just making a mistake. They're not cheating, and they don't get any cut of the rake - they're just screwing up. Players should pay attention to protect themselves from dealer error in the rake, just like they protect themselves from dealer errors on other things.

Lastly... in a professionally-dealt game in a casino or card room, you should never be pulling the pot. It's always the dealer's job to push the pot. Until they push, you no touchee. They were right to call you out on that, every time.

This was my original, real, question to the dealer and she never said that my raise amount was supposed to be raked.

I have questioned the rake before at my local card room too. It is a 10% $5 max + $2 jackpot drop. I assumed they take $1 at $10, $1 at $20, etc. What they do is take the second $1 when the pot exceeds $10, and the third $1 when the pot exceeds $20, etc thereby maximizing the effective rake on low dollar pots. On a $21 pot they would take $3 in rake + $2 jackpot drop or almost 24% rake.

At least it is no flop, no drop.

At one point, the dealer mentioned that anything over $25 should be a $3 rake. That's when I told her it was actually only a $23 pot. Her response was that it was too late, since it was already in the hole.

I like the $25 limit, a 24% scoop for the casino is crazy even on a .

 

[phaze12]

the real problem with the dealer was she didnt know how much was in the pot. she should be keeping a running total in her head until max, in a nl game. a limit game is much easier, just count the bets.

 

[jbutler]

as bunched as my panties seem to get in some conversations/debates/arguments on occasion on the forums, i am a pretty easygoing person, but it does drive me crazy how terrible some of the dealers are in my local rooms. there is a dealer at parx that i routinely walk because he makes so many errors and runs the game so poorly that it tilts me and i fear that it actually might impact my play. and i never, ever, ever tilt. i just don't. but this guy gets me somehow and i just walk over to the noodle bar and get a bite to eat when he gets in the box.

for years borgata's dealers were miles ahead of any other room. then a couple of years ago a bit of controversy unfolded with regard to scheduling and because a few (well, maybe more than a few) had been gaming the system, a new structure was put into place guaranteeing "fairer" scheduling. i don't pretend to know all of the details, but when the new scheduling system was implemented, dealer quality fell sharply and now they are pretty much in line with everywhere else.

we hear a lot about how poker is a loss leader for casinos and i have no personal knowledge that would cause me to argue, but i really wish they could somehow start paying a wage sufficient to keep skilled people in the box. i try to do my part (however futilely) by tipping above my standard amount when dealers are very capable and i always give them an extra dollar at the end of their down and thank them for running the game so smoothly.

 

[phaze12]

sometimes you just need to take a walk. a while ago foxwood dealers used to pool the tips. talk about no incentive to be good at your job. it was horrible, i watched good dealer after good dealer move on. and the bad dealers just stayed. some days you just looked around the room and you knew you were in for a long day when you saw who was working that day. i remeber vividly there was this one guy who took for-ev-or to do anything. i swear we had to average 7 hands (this is including one non flop hand) for the half hour he dealt. and if there was a problem with the shuffler, oh my. i used to pay time ($5) and go get something to eat or take a shower or something. brutal.

 

[pltrgyst]

Why would you pull in the chips; you should always wait for the dealer to push them to you.

I can confirm that Greg doesn't win very many pots, so I can understand his uncontrollable overenthusiasm. :

 

[badpokerplayer]

I've worked in 3 markets(mid Michigan Indian casino, Detroit, and now Vegas) and at no point is an uncalled bet part of the pot at any of the places Ive worked or played.


Example- 1-3 NLHE, 4 limpers preflop. $12 pot, BB bets 10, other 3 fold. House takes $1 as the pot is only $12.

Also on the OP, was there a flop? Most places have a "no flop/no drop" policy. Second, please don't ever reach in to grab a pot, remember all poker rooms are full service (just like the best massage parlors). Dealers have a harder job than you think, so please let them do their job. The game will run smoother and cleaner than if you leave the dealing to the dealer.

If you have a question about any rules, excuse yourself from the table and speak to a supervisor. They will be happy to explain any rules to you without interrupting the action at the table, as well as talk to the dealer when they get up from their down.

 

[bergs]

sometimes you just need to take a walk. a while ago foxwood dealers used to pool the tips. talk about no incentive to be good at your job. it was horrible, i watched good dealer after good dealer move on. and the bad dealers just stayed. some days you just looked around the room and you knew you were in for a long day when you saw who was working that day. i remeber vividly there was this one guy who took for-ev-or to do anything. i swear we had to average 7 hands (this is including one non flop hand) for the half hour he dealt. and if there was a problem with the shuffler, oh my. i used to pay time ($5) and go get something to eat or take a shower or something. brutal.

I remember those days and a couple of those dealers are still there. One of them, a taller Russian guy, is a nightmare if spreading PLO.

Interestingly, the dealers got better the very week they started keeping their tips. It wasn't like they replaced them all in a week, but the difference was considerable.

 

[moose]

How many people play at casinos that rake every pot? Personally I won't play at places that don't use no flop no drop. For this reason I won't play at the Nugget in downtown Vegas.

If your casino rakes every pot, could you post? I wouldn't mind making a list of casinos that do. I didn't know it was becoming more commonplace, kind of like the horrible 6:5 BJ that has now pretty much spread throughout Vegas.

 

[stocky]

How many people play at casinos that rake every pot? Personally I won't play at places that don't use no flop no drop. For this reason I won't play at the Nugget in downtown Vegas.

If your casino rakes every pot, could you post? I wouldn't mind making a list of casinos that do. I didn't know it was becoming more commonplace, kind of like the horrible 6:5 BJ that has now pretty much spread throughout Vegas.

Do not play at the Crown casino in Melbourne. I know they take preflop. Also 30min time rake and 10% rake per hand.

 

[fish72s]

I've worked in 3 markets(mid Michigan Indian casino, Detroit, and now Vegas) and at no point is an uncalled bet part of the pot at any of the places Ive worked or played.


Example- 1-3 NLHE, 4 limpers preflop. $12 pot, BB bets 10, other 3 fold. House takes $1 as the pot is only $12.

.

Just to be clear. if the raiser had been on the button and not the BB then his $3 'call' portion of his bet would be considered part of the pot, correct?

Say 1 limper to the button who raises to $25 and 3 players fold.
Pot is $1(SB)+ $3(BB) + $3(limper) + $3(raiser) = $10.

I actually don't mind a rake if there is no flop as long as the size of the pot warrants it. Its easy to have a $50 to $100 or more pot and still not see a flop.

 

[Mental Nomad]

"No flop, no drop" side-steps that question...

In NJ, I think the answer is no. In the law, it refers to an "uncalled bet..." And Call, Bet, and Raise are all kinds of "Bet." So a raise may be made of a call and a raise, but it constitutes a kind of bet... and, if not called, it is not part of the pot. It never gets pulled "in." Chips are "pulled in" as the players fold. The big blind wager will be "pulled in" to the pot when they fold, so that it can be pushed to the winner, but the winner's bet doesn't get "pulled in..." but that's a speculative interpretation on my part.

It didn't come up, for me... we were dealing 7-stud when I was working it. If there was an uncalled raise on 3rd street, we'd push all the chips to the raiser and start the next round.