Materials and metals used to increase chip weight (1 Viewer)

[Carnth]

Throughout chip history, different materials have been used to increase the weight of chips.

Notably, lead. Which was phased out decades ago.

We're not going to talk about slugs. (Unless there's something compelling about them.)

Brass flakes are still used in chips, especially in most colors of CPC chips.

Have any other metals been used?

Tungsten? Titanium? Bismuth?
Gold? Any others?

How would metals like this work in the "clay" material? Would they corrode? Would it actually make that much of a difference concerning the weight?

@David Spragg has CPC experimented with this?

I'm very curious about the science behind it and would like any information anyone has.

 

[BGinGA]

Lead and other metal slugs (brass, steel, ??) were used in clay chips in the past. Slugs are not limited just to plastic chips.

I think zinc oxide replaced lead oxide in GPI's clay chip formula.

Aluminum and other metal flakes have been added to Paulson clay chips as a security feature, not to add weight.

 

[maxvell]

In a similar vein, is there such thing as an ideal weight for a chip? Is heavier always better?

When I last was searching for a set a few years back, I found myself looking for a set with a lot of heft. Pretty sure I even considered a metal ship set (again, just wanted something heavy), but I got lucky and stumbled across a quality set and went that direction instead.

 

[Bikshu]

In a similar vein, is there such thing as an ideal weight for a chip? Is heavier always better?

Most true casino chips hover around the 10 gram mark. And with the billions and billions of dollars spent on casino gambling worldwide each year one would think that the casinos have probably done their due research on this and ultimately settled on that chip weight for a reason.

Similarly, I think most people here at PCF would tell you that the "heavier is always better" adage is almost never true. That's just a logical fallacy that people tend to fall into, which in turn allows companies to market their cheap metal slug chips as having "a luxurious heft." I own sample sets of two of the very heaviest poker chips ever released: the Pirate Gold metal poker chips which range from 13g - 16g per chip, as well as the Tangiers Casino "brass core" chips that weigh in at 16g each. And I can assure you it would be no fun to play an entire multi-hour game of poker with either chip set. Hell, if you were to ever try playing with those chips on a glass table then I'd highly suggest that you bring hearing protection and wear steel toed shoes for when the table shatters. LOL

 

[allforcharity]

Is heavier always better?

No

 

[iLogik]

CIC? I kinda always wanted a set for the weight

 

[Carnth]

Pirate Gold metal poker chips which range from 13g - 16g per chip, as well as the Tangiers Casino "brass core" chips that weigh in at 16g each. And I can assure you it would be no fun to play an entire multi-hour game of poker with either chip set.

There is an upper limit to chip weights. As described above, it starts to become impractical to play with very heavy chips.

In my personal opinion (and everyone's opinions can be different, but this is my opinion)....
Chips start to feel "cheap" at under 8 grams.
They feel normal ("official casino weight" lol) at 8 to 10 grams.
They feel hefty (and real nice, aka "bricks") from 10 to 13 grams.
They are too heavy when over 13 grams.
Again, this is just my personal opinion.

And it's weird, that in my rating system, it goes from "real nice" to already "too heavy" pretty much instantly. There's no "starting to get too heavy" middle ground.

 

[maxvell]

And with the billions and billions of dollars spent on casino gambling worldwide each year one would think that the casinos have probably done their due research on this and ultimately settled on that chip weight for a reason.

That's perhaps the most convincing argument I could accept!

Similarly, I think most people here at PCF would tell you that the "heavier is always better" adage is almost never true. That's just a logical fallacy that people tend to fall into, which in turn allows companies to market their cheap metal slug chips as having "a luxurious heft."

I definitely fell into this trap!

And I can assure you it would be no fun to play an entire multi-hour game of poker with either chip set.

So while I believe this based on your first point, for someone who hasn't experienced an overweighted set, how would you describe the experience and it's downsides?

 

[surfik]

Stralka used tungsten but it made chips so hard it wear machines quickly, at least that what they said when they stopped production

 

[Carnth]

Stralka used tungsten but it made chips so hard it wear machines quickly, at least that what they said when they stopped production

I guess this is why lead was used. It's a really soft, but heavy metal.

What about gold? Still soft and heavy, but expensive.

But hey, this is PCF, who's ready to pay $340 per chip!

 

[surfik]

I guess this is why lead was used. It's a really soft, but heavy metal.

What about gold? Still soft and heavy, but expensive.

But hey, this is PCF, who's ready to pay $340 per chip!

Thats why I go ceramic or Nexgen

 

[ekricket]

So, there is some old school knowledge floating around, but the instant someone posted something it would be met with “what’s your source”.
Some of said sources are no longer alive.

It’s moot anyway so not worth the effort to post anything.

 

[Bikshu]

So while I believe this based on your first point, for someone who hasn't experienced an overweighted set, how would you describe the experience and it's downsides?

The super heavyweight chips in the 13g-16g range that I have tried are either mostly or entirely metal, and by far the biggest downside to them in my mind is the noise. Sure the metallic "clink" they make when touching each other might be pretty entertaining for like 20 or 30 minutes, but it starts getting a bit grating after that. And it gets especially annoying if you have multiple players who shuffle their chips and/or splash pots throughout the night.

I know there actually are people out there who truly love the sound these metal chips make and wouldn't mind it over the course of a 6 hour tournament, but I think they are clearly in the minority. The rest of us are going to be reaching for a bottle of Tylenol after hour 2, and by hour 3 you'll be going all-in every hand just to get the hell out of there and find some peace and quiet. LOL

That said, I'd encourage you to try samples if you still think that you might like very hefty chips. If you go to https://pirategoldpoker.com/ you can order samples of their chips for just a few bucks to play around with and decide for yourself.

 

[maxvell]

by far the biggest downside to them in my mind is the noise

The rest of us are going to be reaching for a bottle of Tylenol after hour 2, and by hour 3 you'll be going all-in every hand just to get the hell out of there and find some peace and quiet. LOL

LOL okay that actually makes a ton of sense. I would probably bring a pair of earplugs.

So let me ask this then, if they still had the classic sound of a clay chip (and perhaps volume as well) but the heft of 16-20g, would that perhaps go back into the desirable category? Idk how you would achieve this, so just speaking hypothetically here.

I suppose for me I associate a portion of a smaller item's value based on the heft it holds (assuming it's not in a weight critical space). Not sure why, perhaps valuable metals tend to be heavier. I assume this is partially the source of the logical fallacy of "heavier is better" that I and many other have fell into.

 

[Bikshu]

LOL okay that actually makes a ton of sense. I would probably bring a pair of earplugs.

So let me ask this then, if they still had the classic sound of a clay chip (and perhaps volume as well) but the heft of 16-20g, would that perhaps go back into the desirable category? Idk how you would achieve this, so just speaking hypothetically here.

I suppose for me I associate a portion of a smaller item's value based on the heft it holds (assuming it's not in a weight critical space). Not sure why, perhaps valuable metals tend to be heavier. I assume this is partially the source of the logical fallacy of "heavier is better" that I and many other have fell into.

I recognize that this is open to interpretation, but I'm not entirely sure that valuable metals tend to really be heavier. I mean I don't think that most scientists would consider silver, gold, or platinum to be true "heavy metals" per se, and yet they are certainly among the more valuable metals out there.

That said, when it comes to poker chips I think the main benefit that a bit of extra weight might bring is perhaps making them a bit sturdier. After all, we know that it is possible to snap a compressed clay chip like Paulson or CPC chip by hand... it's very difficult to do, mind you, but it is possible. Whereas no one is going to be snapping one of the Pirate Gold or Tangiers brass core metal chips no matter how hard they try.

I also think that - all else being equal - a bit more weight might also help prevent chips from being moved by mistake. Like if the game table gets shoved by accident then a stack of 20 chips weighing 280 grams is probably a tad less likely to topple over than a stack of 20 chips weighing just 200 grams. The problem with this statement, however, is that "all else being equal" part (good old "ceteris paribus" if you ever took Latin or economics in school LOL). We know that a whole heck of a lot more variables go into how "stackable" chips are than simply their weight. That ability to stack also comes down to chip design, materials used, textures involved, how much surface area of each chip is in contact with other chips, etc. And these myriad other factors are why those Pirate Gold metal chips I've mentioned, despite being pretty darn heavy, really don't stack very well at all in my personal opinion. The Tangiers brass core chips and CPC sets that I've tried, on the other hand, stack great... they're like little freaking brick houses LOL.

And this all goes back to why it's so darn important to always get samples of any chips that you consider purchasing. People always say that you can't judge a book by its cover. But it's also safe to say that you can never really judge a poker chip by its picture or by its weight. You really need to be able to handle a few of them to get an idea of how fun - or frustrating - they'll be to actually play with.

 

[philhut]

I guess this is why lead was used. It's a really soft, but heavy metal.

What about gold? Still soft and heavy, but expensive.

But hey, this is PCF, who's ready to pay $340 per chip!

Come on Bezo's show us your gold/platinum/silver set....


My main guess on the avg 10grams (ie 9.xyz to 10grams avg with a rack/tray in a rack of 100) helps calculating acceptable lifting weights for employer paid injury insurance. Thus employees could be tasked with lifting up to 8 or 10 racks at a time for example, meeting maximum weight loads of 40 or so lbs or less. Obviously there has been significant player testing but I'd say simple weight math calculations required a standardization of 10gram avgs.

 

[maxim_666666]

The super heavyweight chips in the 13g-16g range that I have tried are either mostly or entirely metal, and by far the biggest downside to them in my mind is the noise. Sure the metallic "clink" they make when touching each other might be pretty entertaining for like 20 or 30 minutes, but it starts getting a bit grating after that. And it gets especially annoying if you have multiple players who shuffle their chips and/or splash pots throughout the night.

I know there actually are people out there who truly love the sound these metal chips make and wouldn't mind it over the course of a 6 hour tournament, but I think they are clearly in the minority. The rest of us are going to be reaching for a bottle of Tylenol after hour 2, and by hour 3 you'll be going all-in every hand just to get the hell out of there and find some peace and quiet. LOL

That said, I'd encourage you to try samples if you still think that you might like very hefty chips. If you go to https://pirategoldpoker.com/ you can order samples of their chips for just a few bucks to play around with and decide for yourself.

I can only add that a lot depends on the manufacturer. This is very important.
First of all, I agree that chips over 13 grams are very heavy to handle. I mean bronze like Tangers (16 grams). I couldn't play with them. But a premium manufacturer could probably make them great too.
For example, the much-hated dice chips weigh 12-13 grams and are basically "acceptable weight", but oh my God!!! A 2-3 hour tournament turns into some kind of torture if people start shuffling them. 30 minutes and your head is ready to burst from this ringing. But I have Matsui chips (coin inside) and I owned a Bud Jones CIC set. And this is just another league. They are also 13 grams. But the quality of the plastic was on a completely different level! The sound and texture are completely different. Like day and night!

 

[maxvell]

For example, the much-hated dice chips weigh 12-13 grams and are basically "acceptable weight", but oh my God!!! A 2-3 hour tournament turns into some kind of torture if people start shuffling them. 30 minutes and your head is ready to burst from this ringing.

So noise it the main issue? Again just for sake of argument, if you had a 20 gram chip that sounded like a top notch 10 gram chip and stacked nicely, the weight itself isn't the root of the issue

I agree that chips over 13 grams are very heavy to handle. I mean bronze like Tangers (16 grams). I couldn't play with them.

My read here is that there might be something else making the chips difficult to work with..

 

[maxim_666666]

So noise it the main issue? Again just for sake of argument, if you had a 20 gram chip that sounded like a top notch 10 gram chip and stacked nicely, the weight itself isn't the root of the issue

Basically, no. The weight itself is not an issue. The feel and quality of the materials are more important. But if we are talking about a shuffle, you don't want to use them. Your fingers will get tired too quickly. I think CPC and Paulson have the perfect weight here. 8-10 grams. Basically, you always need samples.

 

[maxvell]

Gotcha, so my read here is I should probably let go of my dream of producing a ridiculously heavy chip that will be accepted by the PCF. I do love the feel of my Paulson's, so I can understand that position just fine.

 

[allforcharity]

Gotcha, so my read here is I should probably let go of my dream of producing a ridiculously heavy chip that will be accepted by the PCF. I do love the feel of my Paulson's, so I can understand that position just fine.

For extra heaviness, you can try adding uranium-238, just be careful about splashing into a big pot.

 

[RocAFella1]

Hooker juice

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

Between around 1965 and around 1971, the Burt Company often used Tungsten to weight their chips. You see this especially for chip orders for Las Vegas strip properties. They then probably transitioned back to lead, and then around the time that ASM took over, circa 1985, they transitioned to brass flakes. I have never seen a Burt made chip with those brass flakes visible on the chip edge.

These Burt cards from 1966 and 1967 refer to Tungsten and Tungsten Wgt Checks. I'm guessing that Burt got rid of tungsten as a cost saving measure. It is denser/heavier than lead, but more expensive. I wish Classic Poker Chips would experiment with using tungsten again for weight. The extra cost per chip would probably be pennies. I think the currently used brass flakes can't be used with Day Glo colors and they dirty the look of some of the other colors they are used with.

 

[maxvell]

For extra heaviness, you can try adding uranium-238, just be careful about splashing into a big pot.

haha perhaps the nuclear deterrent would mean the end of betting altogether.

 

[Coyote]

haha perhaps the nuclear deterrent would mean the end of betting altogether.

Cruelly ironically, Uranos is the Greek word for Sky. So, uranium means celestial.