Lord Of The Blue Hairs - An Omaha Hi-Lo Journey (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter grandgnu
- Start date
OP
OP
grandgnu
A new beginning
Played the 10/20 O8 last night, pretty short session. Got destroyed for a -$696 session, here's some of the key hands:
KEY HAND #1
Hero has A
2
3
8
in the blinds and we see a flop of:
7
8
9
Hero leads right out, one caller, then a fish who limped 456J raises with idiot end of the straight, we both call.
Turn: J
We check, he bets, we call.
River: 8
We all check it down and he flips over his straight to scoop.
KEY HAND #2 - I ****ED THIS ONE UP
I'm in the BB of a kill pot with K
J
5
3
and the flop comes:
A
J
J
SB checks, I bet into the field, everyone folds except the SB who calls.
Turn: 2
SB checks, I bet and he checkraises me to $60. I should be folding at this point, but instead I call.
River: 9
He tells me he's going to let me off easy this time (it's a guy I play with pretty regularly) and checks, I check and he flips over AJ35 for the scoop.
KEY HAND #3
Note: Prior history, there are two new players to my immediate left that I've never seen before. one I know plays PLO regularly, he's sitting with a lot of chips and counting his wad of hundos at the table. He plays over-aggressive with marginal hands in an attempt to narrow the field. In a previous pot he limped UTG, UTG+1 raised, folds to the SB who calls, I call from the BB with 2
3
8
J
figuring given the way both UTG and UTG+1 have been playing, plus all the folds, that there are aces out there to hit the flop.
Then UTG three-bets and UTG+1 caps it so I fold (UTG three-bet holding 3456, LOL)
Anyway, that hand I would've made the nut low and the 3-high flush and would've scooped, so right fold, wrong time I guess. Anyhoo, on to my final hand of the night.
I'm in the BB with A348 and see a flop of A23 and lead out, PLO guy raises me and I repop him and he just calls. Turn is another A, I check, he bets, I check-raise, he raises, I four-bet, he just calls. River is a 7 and we get three-bets and the last of my chips into the pot.
board: A23A7
me: A348
him: A467
So on the turn when we went to four bets he is 7.5% to scoop me, and of course that 7 peels off just perfect on the river.
Going to be stepping back from the 10/20 game for a bit, it's really killing my spirits, and will focus more on the 3/6 and maybe the 6/12 on Friday nights for a bit to get my head straight, getting pretty frustrated.
OVERALL
3/6 O8 FK
Hours: 60.25
Profit: $7
Hourly: $0.12
6/12 O8 FK
Hours: 70.25
Profit: $920
Hourly: $13.10
10/20 O8 HK
hours: 24
Profit: -$1,635
Hourly: -$68.13
KEY HAND #1
Hero has A
7
Hero leads right out, one caller, then a fish who limped 456J raises with idiot end of the straight, we both call.
Turn: J
We check, he bets, we call.
River: 8
We all check it down and he flips over his straight to scoop.
KEY HAND #2 - I ****ED THIS ONE UP
I'm in the BB of a kill pot with K
A
SB checks, I bet into the field, everyone folds except the SB who calls.
Turn: 2
SB checks, I bet and he checkraises me to $60. I should be folding at this point, but instead I call.
River: 9
He tells me he's going to let me off easy this time (it's a guy I play with pretty regularly) and checks, I check and he flips over AJ35 for the scoop.
KEY HAND #3
Note: Prior history, there are two new players to my immediate left that I've never seen before. one I know plays PLO regularly, he's sitting with a lot of chips and counting his wad of hundos at the table. He plays over-aggressive with marginal hands in an attempt to narrow the field. In a previous pot he limped UTG, UTG+1 raised, folds to the SB who calls, I call from the BB with 2
Then UTG three-bets and UTG+1 caps it so I fold (UTG three-bet holding 3456, LOL)
Anyway, that hand I would've made the nut low and the 3-high flush and would've scooped, so right fold, wrong time I guess. Anyhoo, on to my final hand of the night.
I'm in the BB with A348 and see a flop of A23 and lead out, PLO guy raises me and I repop him and he just calls. Turn is another A, I check, he bets, I check-raise, he raises, I four-bet, he just calls. River is a 7 and we get three-bets and the last of my chips into the pot.
board: A23A7
me: A348
him: A467
So on the turn when we went to four bets he is 7.5% to scoop me, and of course that 7 peels off just perfect on the river.
Going to be stepping back from the 10/20 game for a bit, it's really killing my spirits, and will focus more on the 3/6 and maybe the 6/12 on Friday nights for a bit to get my head straight, getting pretty frustrated.
OVERALL
3/6 O8 FK
Hours: 60.25
Profit: $7
Hourly: $0.12
6/12 O8 FK
Hours: 70.25
Profit: $920
Hourly: $13.10
10/20 O8 HK
hours: 24
Profit: -$1,635
Hourly: -$68.13
bergs
Royal Flush
Does anyone make money playing O8? I'm a losing player at the game and as much as I enjoy it, I'm quitting it in the casino. Seriously, I can't find anyone that wins at O8 except the house. Someone prove me wrong and give me back hope 
OP
OP
grandgnu
A new beginning
Does anyone make money playing O8? I'm a losing player at the game and as much as I enjoy it, I'm quitting it in the casino. Seriously, I can't find anyone that wins at O8 except the house. Someone prove me wrong and give me back hope
Lol, mine is an extremely small sample size. From my past experience it's possible to earn 2-3 bb/hr in the game if you're playing full ring with 5+ players seeing a flop. My losses are a combination of:
1. Being a bit rusty getting back into the game and playing some hands that have negative expected value
2. Being on the negative side of variance in some larger pots against players who have 15-25% equity on the flop against my hand, only to hit their gin cards on the turn or river.
Does anyone make money playing O8? I'm a losing player at the game and as much as I enjoy it, I'm quitting it in the casino. Seriously, I can't find anyone that wins at O8 except the house. Someone prove me wrong and give me back hope
I play almost every Friday afternoon at a local raked O8 4/8 game. $4/pot no matter what, and $1 more only if the pot is over $50 for a high hand paid at the end of the day. Typically 5-7+ players to the flop. Many players are marginal but even then I think this game is nearly impossible to beat consistently. I play because I like it and it's a nice break from NLHE. And because the food's good and the players are generally pleasant and I have fun. I'm up just a little over the last 18 months and only that if I give myself credit for comp'ed food. Because this is a local game and I've gotten to know the primary dealer pretty well, I'm also over-tipping myself toward a -EV, but I'm ok with that. As long as I'm not getting my ass handed to me, I'm happy.
At 6/12 or higher, I would think the game would be beatable as long as the competition doesn't improve and that's not a given.
Average play in O8 seems to be worse than average play in Hold'em, but that could just be my impression.
OP
OP
grandgnu
A new beginning
The reason hi/lo games are so profitable is because there are many opponents who allow themselves to get freerolled. You have half the pot LOCKED and it's yours, and the other half you can outdraw them for and scoop the whole shebang.
It can be as simple as not playing a hand of any significance for a few dealer rotations and then hitting one or two big hands that get you showing a healthy profit. Full-ring loose/passive games are my favorite and just require a lot of patience, folding, waiting for the right hands to enter, and not getting married to those hands when they whiff or you get counterfeited, etc.
I had a guy betting the 8-high flush, with another holding the Q-high flush calling and then both of them calling my raise when I'm holding the nut Ace-high flush. You just valuetown these guys, that's how it's done.
I've played too many A4 and A5 suited holdings recently, which I've been working to correct.
It can be as simple as not playing a hand of any significance for a few dealer rotations and then hitting one or two big hands that get you showing a healthy profit. Full-ring loose/passive games are my favorite and just require a lot of patience, folding, waiting for the right hands to enter, and not getting married to those hands when they whiff or you get counterfeited, etc.
I had a guy betting the 8-high flush, with another holding the Q-high flush calling and then both of them calling my raise when I'm holding the nut Ace-high flush. You just valuetown these guys, that's how it's done.
I've played too many A4 and A5 suited holdings recently, which I've been working to correct.
Does anyone make money playing O8? I'm a losing player at the game and as much as I enjoy it, I'm quitting it in the casino. Seriously, I can't find anyone that wins at O8 except the house. Someone prove me wrong and give me back hope
yeah it's possible. and you know it's possible because i've seen you take a couple racks off the table at the Parx $6/12 OE game.
i didn't play anything but $10/20 O8 for probably a year and over that time i beat the game for about 1.5 big bets an hour. i was almost always playing at prime donking hours, though - weekend nights. if you're committed to playing for profit and are willing to tighten up to optimal levels (i.e., fucking squeaky, squeaky tight), you could definitely beat it for more than 1.5 BBs imo.
OP
OP
grandgnu
A new beginning
Here's my squeaky tight list:
The Top 10 List
A-A-2-x
A-A-3-x
A-A-4-5
A-2-3-x
A-2-K-K
A-2-Q-Q
A-2-J-J
A-3-4-5
A-A-x-x
A-2-K-Q
A-2-K-J
A-2-x-x (Suited ace)
A-3-K-K
A-3-4-x
2-3-4-5 (Fold if there is no ace on the flop)
J-Q-K-A
T-J-Q-K
K-K-Q-J
Q-J-T-9
2-3-4-x (Fold if there is no ace on the flop)
Any four cards between a 10 and an ace.
Now, if there's a bunch of folds and I'm in LP and hold 23xx I may come along because the likelihood that an Ace will flop increases.
Likewise, if there's a ton of people entering the pot and I'm in LP and hold a high-only hand (AKQJ, etc) I may opt to raise. This is because the likelihood of a high flop is increased because there are more than likely a lot of low cards out in the players hands, so I want to build the pot now rather than miss those bets when players realize there will be no low.
If I have an AA2x or A23x type hand I'm willing to raise it from LP regardless of the # of players in the pot. From EP with an A23x hand I may raise or I may limp-raise if the opportunity presents itself.
But on reflection of my recent play I've definitely played too many A4, A5 and 23 hands that don't have much else going for them, and that's a leak I will plug
The Top 10 List
- A-A-2-3 DS
- A-A-2-4 DS
- A-A-2-3 Suited
- A-A-2-5 DS
- A-A-2-4 Suited
- A-A-3-4 DS
- A-A-2-3 Non-suited
- A-A-2-2 DS
- A-A-3-5 DS
- A-A-2-6 DS
A-A-2-x
A-A-3-x
A-A-4-5
A-2-3-x
A-2-K-K
A-2-Q-Q
A-2-J-J
A-3-4-5
A-A-x-x
A-2-K-Q
A-2-K-J
A-2-x-x (Suited ace)
A-3-K-K
A-3-4-x
2-3-4-5 (Fold if there is no ace on the flop)
J-Q-K-A
T-J-Q-K
K-K-Q-J
Q-J-T-9
2-3-4-x (Fold if there is no ace on the flop)
Any four cards between a 10 and an ace.
Now, if there's a bunch of folds and I'm in LP and hold 23xx I may come along because the likelihood that an Ace will flop increases.
Likewise, if there's a ton of people entering the pot and I'm in LP and hold a high-only hand (AKQJ, etc) I may opt to raise. This is because the likelihood of a high flop is increased because there are more than likely a lot of low cards out in the players hands, so I want to build the pot now rather than miss those bets when players realize there will be no low.
If I have an AA2x or A23x type hand I'm willing to raise it from LP regardless of the # of players in the pot. From EP with an A23x hand I may raise or I may limp-raise if the opportunity presents itself.
But on reflection of my recent play I've definitely played too many A4, A5 and 23 hands that don't have much else going for them, and that's a leak I will plug
Chicken Rob
Full House
You'll play QJT9 but not QJT8? QJT8 flops more nut wraps. Just sayin'...
OP
OP
grandgnu
A new beginning
I'd prefer not to play hands with 7's, 8's or 9's in them the vast majority of the time.
Why? Those are indeed bad cards for O8 hands, but only because they're shitty low cards and you run the risk of making either (1) the shit end of a straight or (2) a nut straight that only wins half the pot.
If you're willing to play QJT9, you're still going to have problem number 2 above.
Sure but the same is true for Chicken's suggested hand QJT8, so why the rule against that hand but not QJT9?
To clarify, the key to winning is value betting the nuts in limit O8?
OP
OP
grandgnu
A new beginning
about tree-fiddy (actually, about 4% ev)
To clarify, the key to winning is value betting the nuts in limit O8?
That's the dream, but it depends. Short-handed or more aggressive games you have to adjust for. But generally my goal is to play in a game where there aren't a ton of difficult decisions and I can just get paid off consistently by weaker hands.
There are so many players that will overvalue straights when a flush is out, flushes when the board is paired, etc. that make the game profitable.
I mean, I had a lady raise A399 because she "just knew" when she saw the pair of 9's...... (of course, she scooped a $700 pot and wound up with around $1400 in front of her at one point, but by the end of the night cashed out less than $100)
Tried looking back at some of the HHS but as stated earlier this thread is awful on TT so I'll try looking tonight.
Starting hands... Dude open up a little. Am I right in reading that basically your cards hit the muck unless you're playing for low or broadway? How are you ever quartering anyone (or scooping when the three guys each playing for 1/6th miss their low)?
Your strategy may be solid but id never be able to play that way... Seeing four flops per hour isn't my idea of fun and if it's money you're after you'll make plenty more by putting all that time into pretty much anything else
Per the example... I can't see myself laying down A399 preflop very often but I tend to stick around to see a flop more often than not
Starting hands... Dude open up a little. Am I right in reading that basically your cards hit the muck unless you're playing for low or broadway? How are you ever quartering anyone (or scooping when the three guys each playing for 1/6th miss their low)?
Your strategy may be solid but id never be able to play that way... Seeing four flops per hour isn't my idea of fun and if it's money you're after you'll make plenty more by putting all that time into pretty much anything else
Per the example... I can't see myself laying down A399 preflop very often but I tend to stick around to see a flop more often than not
Chicken Rob
Full House
Where does this number come from?
I have to believe that when you are playing a hand like KQT9 or KQT8 You are still mostly nut peddling for a high.I think most of the positive EV of both of those hands against a table full of random hands is going to be folded away anyway. You're not going to be calling down with bottom 2 with those hands. I have to believe that the hand that makes the most nut wraps is more likely to make it showdown in a game like this. At least more likely to make it to the river.
Anyway, I have been enjoying this thread. Keep it up!
OP
OP
grandgnu
A new beginning
because of a limitation of 20 images per post I'll point you guys to my 2+2 post today here:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=46978216&postcount=60
I recorded ALL hands I VPiP for an overview of how I played today.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=46978216&postcount=60
I recorded ALL hands I VPiP for an overview of how I played today.
Ben
Full House
-Hero limps Ad2c3d4s in EP
Wha?
-Hero is SB holding AhAcTh8c and limps.
-Flop: 2h4sQh
-Checked around
Dafuq? Definite raise pre, definite flop bet either way.
-Hero limps button with AsJsTh9d
-Flop: 8d7s2d
-Hero folds to bet
I'd probably peel one SB here depending on number of players, but OK I guess...
-Hero is SB with Ac2s8cJc on a kill pot.
-One raiser preflop, Hero calls.
-Flop: 7c4d7h
-Checked around
-Turn: As
-Hero check-folds to a bet
This was a HU pot? If so, folding to one bet is bad here IMO. You very likely have one half or the other and COULD be scooping.
-Folds around to the CO who limps, Hero limps from the SB with 3c4h6c9s because the likelihood of low cards hitting the flop has increased and the Ace's and 2' should be more live due to the number of folds
-Flop: 2h4d6s
-Hero check-folds to a bet
*squeak squeak* This isn't worth one small bet to see what happens??? Why even limp then?
-Hero limps Kd4c3c2h in LP
-Flop: 9c2c2d
-Checked around
-Turn: 6s
-Checked around
YGBMFKM...
-Hero limps in LP with AhQcJhTc
OOOOOOOOOK.
-Hero limps button with AsJc5s4s
-Flop: AhJd6s
-Checked around
-Turn: 4h
-Checked around
-River: 5c
-Hero check-folds to a bet
I'm good with the limp. How do we not bet this flop???
-Hero limps in EP with As2h4s5s
More squeaking sounds...
If you can't tell, I think you may be playing a bit too tight in some (quite a few) spots. Being rock-tight preflop is one thing (and a good one,) but it seems like you are missing some value and giving up some pots too easily postflop. Maybe correct in this game (you're there and I'm not, so I can't say for sure) but I do know that if I were in it, I'd be exploiting the hell out of this (and probably losing it to the rest of the table, but c'est la vie.)
Wha?
-Hero is SB holding AhAcTh8c and limps.
-Flop: 2h4sQh
-Checked around
Dafuq? Definite raise pre, definite flop bet either way.
-Hero limps button with AsJsTh9d
-Flop: 8d7s2d
-Hero folds to bet
I'd probably peel one SB here depending on number of players, but OK I guess...
-Hero is SB with Ac2s8cJc on a kill pot.
-One raiser preflop, Hero calls.
-Flop: 7c4d7h
-Checked around
-Turn: As
-Hero check-folds to a bet
This was a HU pot? If so, folding to one bet is bad here IMO. You very likely have one half or the other and COULD be scooping.
-Folds around to the CO who limps, Hero limps from the SB with 3c4h6c9s because the likelihood of low cards hitting the flop has increased and the Ace's and 2' should be more live due to the number of folds
-Flop: 2h4d6s
-Hero check-folds to a bet
*squeak squeak* This isn't worth one small bet to see what happens??? Why even limp then?
-Hero limps Kd4c3c2h in LP
-Flop: 9c2c2d
-Checked around
-Turn: 6s
-Checked around
YGBMFKM...
-Hero limps in LP with AhQcJhTc
OOOOOOOOOK.
-Hero limps button with AsJc5s4s
-Flop: AhJd6s
-Checked around
-Turn: 4h
-Checked around
-River: 5c
-Hero check-folds to a bet
I'm good with the limp. How do we not bet this flop???
-Hero limps in EP with As2h4s5s
More squeaking sounds...
If you can't tell, I think you may be playing a bit too tight in some (quite a few) spots. Being rock-tight preflop is one thing (and a good one,) but it seems like you are missing some value and giving up some pots too easily postflop. Maybe correct in this game (you're there and I'm not, so I can't say for sure) but I do know that if I were in it, I'd be exploiting the hell out of this (and probably losing it to the rest of the table, but c'est la vie.
)manamongkids
Full House
"If it's good enough to call you gotta be in there raising, all right. I mean tight but aggressive, and I do mean aggressive. That's your style, Professor. I mean you gotta ...you gotta think of it as a war."
OP
OP
grandgnu
A new beginning
You're right, I should be raising this. I think I got gun-shy because earlier in the session I got back-to-back A23 type hands and then both flops came two high cards, one low card and I hated life.
There were a bunch of limpers in that hand and given the T8 in my hand I didn't feel it was strong enough to bloat the pot OOP. I will sometimes bet the flop in this spot, and othertimes let others. I have pretty much zero chance at the low draw, so I'm looking at this as a high only situation where I expect to split the pot most of the time, and that's provided I actually make my flush. My Aces are likely good at the moment, but there aren't a ton of good turn cards except a non-pairing heart that I'll like.
We are playing for half of a small pot with the nut straight draw when there is a flush draw we don't have out as well. Don't chase for half a small pot when you can be scooped.
No, most pots saw 5-7 limpers, I just didn't specify in my HH how many players were in everytime. Our 82 low or pair of Aces with a Jack kicker isn't likely to be good against the field and the pot was too small. The majority of the players in this particular lineup were the classic calling stations, so if one of them is firing, it's time to go in this sort of spot.
I limped because the Aces and two's are likely more live than in other spots. On this flop I'm facing one opponent who bets and have the BB to act after me. I've made top two pair, but my shot at winning the low half of the pot has dropped greatly and I could easily be in a spot where I'm being freerolled (opponent has low locked against me and can outdraw me for high) I expect most of the time to be playing for half the pot which is a small pot.
I should be betting at least the turn, and possibly the flop, you are right.
I'm not sure what you're saying. Do you think I should be folding, raising?
You're right, Hero should be betting on the button here when checked to on the flop.
You are right, I should be raising this
If you can't tell, I think you may be playing a bit too tight in some (quite a few) spots. Being rock-tight preflop is one thing (and a good one,) but it seems like you are missing some value and giving up some pots too easily postflop. Maybe correct in this game (you're there and I'm not, so I can't say for sure) but I do know that if I were in it, I'd be exploiting the hell out of this (and probably losing it to the rest of the table, but c'est la vie.
Thanks for the input, there were definitely some spots I misplayed. This lineup was filled with loose/passives who you had to do the heavy lifting to build pots with, and I think after whiffing back-to-back A23x type raises when the flop came two high and one low that I got gun-shy about doing it again which was a mistake.
it depends on game dynamic imo. if basically everyone is calling one raise, then raise it up. if you get it down to 2 or 3 handed with a raise, this is an easy limp. the value in the hand is that if a low comes, unless you get supremely unlucky you will have the nut low and you absolutely will get paid off by inferior lows as well as the high, bloating your half of the pot.
this strat relies on the hand being 4+ (preferably 5+) handed to the flop, so you want to do whatever you need to do to make that happen. if it's limping, then limp.
Ben
Full House
Based on responses above I think you underestimate the value of scooping the high half of pots where several other players will be duking it out for the low. To my view this is worth raising for with very strong high hands in position (i.e. AQJTds) or calling a small bet with a reasonable shot at the high in spots where you can easily fold to later action if you don't improve (high wrap/BD flush on low board, 64 plus mediocre low draw on 642 board.) Maybe I'm wrong, but I would have to see some convincing math.
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