Let's play diamonds (1 Viewer)

[1A25R]

Regular .25/.50 with the guys

UTG, card dead since a while opens for 2.50 - I put UTG on a premium hand range: AA-KK-AK-AQ (not KQ not TT) : (~$55 behind)
UTG+1 folds but mid position had cal .50 out of turn, she realizes her mistake ans add the last 2, rolling her eyes (obviously she didn't want to play for 5x) (~$50 behind and she rebuy once )
CUT OFF: calls (~$200 behind)
Me @ button : I decide to gamble with due to the mistake of mid position and the call cut off SB or BB will came along SB fold. I want to give a try to the flop. (~$150 behind)
BB Calls (~$80 behind)

5 to see the flop / $12.75 in the pot
FLOP:
Check around to me.

• What do you do?
• It's my call ok regarding the implicit odds ?
• i'll tell you what I did in next post.

 

[DrStrange]

Note to OP - - - let some time run off before the next stage. You might have had a productive discussion about how to handle the preflop. I could make a case for fold or raise or call. A squeeze play 3-bet is an interesting thought depending on how we read UTG

How sticky are the villains? Will someone fold JT to a bet? Will the original raiser get stubborn with QQ? Hero's table image matters too.

I lean towards a bet something like $7 or $8 with a "free card" play in mind vs anyone but the "didn't want to call" UTG+1

I could be convinced to check behind vs very sticky villains.

 

[Cyo]

Just curious, what was your plan when you called? You said, "I decide to gamble" so what does that mean for you here?

 

[1A25R]

BB is sticky ; he plays a lot of hands. BB is the kind of guy not to fold JT
UTG+1 was complaining being car dead a while ago. He can fold QQ pre-flop if re raised.
MID Position play tight as it's her first night with us, but she over estimate AK value. Play a bit large only in position QTs and down to 88
CUT: BB wife, she know when his husband is trying to steal a pot She plays more conservative. In that late position her hand may be mid pair or suited connectors 10 and above.
Hero Image: Rarely limp, usually I raise. The usual comment that i heard when I raise is "here we go again..." I (try to) play position and I can raise the same amount with KK in early position or loose hands late position. I vary the amount of my openings ( 3x or 5x ) independently the position or hand. (I mean; I can 5x TT and next time 3x KK)

 

[1A25R]

what was your plan when you called?
"I decide to gamble" so what does that mean for you here?

by "I decide to gamble" I mean that pre-flop i'm 100% sure that UTG beat me, so I need to out-flop him. I decided to call because it's 2.5 in $10 (As and I'm sure that this will drag BB)
My plan was hit the flop and ruin the pair of Ace's of the BB

 

[DrStrange]

"hitting" the flop to beat pocket aces is something like 2%. Hitting a draw which might eventually win or being able to bet the aces hard enough to fold them is more likely. Problem is the SPR for the aces is going to be something like four and in that environment the aces rarely fold. Now if villain holds QQ and the flop is ace high - - - - then he could easily find a fold, if he is the sort of villain who folds big preflop hands that flop poorly.

 

[JustinInMN]

I like the call pf just fine except in the tightest of games. With this much pf calling, clearly this is not a tight game .

The flop decision is tempting to take the green light, but what if early position players are frequent check raisers. Also consider what is utg going to do with his tight range. Is getting going to make a stand with KK since he's been pretty uninvolved?

Your own image may be a problem if "here we go again" is the refrain you hear when raising. Means there is at least going to be some skepticism.

I think there's a case to bet or check here. It's really opponent dependent. But in this mix of circumstances and especially with you having UTG on a tight range, I lean check.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Preflop: The call is usually fine for that much, on the button with some deep stacks in play. However, there is something to consider that wasn't explicitly mentioned.

To get involved in big pots with hands like 67s, i.e., hands that tend to require improvement even after they hit the flop, it's important that you be up against people who aren't aggressive enough post-flop. If your opponents play very passively or bet too small, that's exactly what you want. This should be one of your main considerations when you decide whether to call.

Flop: Looks like you're at one of those tables where people are passive and/or bet too small. Magnifique. Just take the free card. Betting has almost no fold equity here, in a five-handed raised pot on an ace-high flop. You're more likely to get raised off the hand than buy the pot.

 

[cwebb]

Jim said it all. You might get raised off the hand. The only thing you might get by betting is to build the pot. But in a multiway pot with a few guys sticking around, that should not be a problem on later streets.

 

[1A25R]

Is a flop in BB and UTG range, I do not know why both checked that board, with 4 players behind who are very happy to have free cards.-
Mid position is lost here, she wil fold to any bet.
I want to create some reaction and try to find out where I'm and I bet a low $4 on that flop.

BB Call
UTG Call
Mid pos. and CUT OFF flods

Turn

POT $24.75

Board now is

BB Check
UTG Check

My turn to act...

• What do you do?
• Was my $4 bet an error? (too low?)
• i'll tell you what I did in next post (in about ~24h.)

 

[JustinInMN]

The more I think about it, the more I like the check here. (Edit, meant on the flop.) There are flush draws I could have here that are better for betting. Those containing overcards.

This had is going to be tough to continue on check raise. It tough to play if we get multiple callers and get there. Not many smaller flush draws than this one.

 

[JustinInMN]

Was my $4 bet an error? (too low?)

It depends what are you going to bet if you have an ace here? Just be careful of creating a sizing tell. Less means draw, more means value.

I would have preferred the check, bit this is an okay result too. UTG came along so you really needed to improve.

I would go to least a half pot here. UTG may have the or and you should try and collect from that.

 

[DrStrange]

Bet $15 for value. fold to a check/raise.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I want to create some reaction and try to find out where I'm and I bet a low $4 on that flop.

I've seen more serious players put in more bad bets in poker for this reason than almost any other.

You know where you're at. You have a seven-high flush draw. It's definitely behind and needs a diamond.

It will sometimes be near-dead to a larger flush draw, but betting the flop won't tell you that. It's just a risk you assume with small suited cards, and maybe you can escape cheaply if the bigger flush tips his hand. Betting the flop is a mistake, for the reasons I outlined in my earlier reply.

You also bet way too small. If ever a bet might tell you where you're at, it won't be a bet of 1/3 of the pot. With $12 and change in there, you need to bet more like $8 to $10 if at all.

Anyway, on to the turn. I'm gonna say a bet of $16 just to one-up @DrStrange.

 

[JustinInMN]

fold to a check/raise

I am never folding to a check raise from UTG, he really can't have a flush unless you add to the utg raising range as OP describes.

But if I make the flush, I am not going to fold it to one check raise easily. Even against other villian. Could be ace with a flush draw. Could be two pair. Seems way too exploitive to give up this good a hand this easily in a game that isn't that tight.

 

[1A25R]

as @JustinInMN mention, is NOT in the range of UTG for a 5x.
@Jimulacrum @DrStrange : Thank you for your comments so far, very useful


So at this point is when everything became even worse, I hesitate to value bet, because I still do not know what BB is doing here.
For I do not know what reason (chicken?) I decided to bet $7 to build the pot with 2 check/call check/call behind (don't scare the fish)

Now, BB leans forward, stares at UTG stack, lean back, stares at UTG stack again, and raises to $28
UTG: Snap shoves all-in for about $50


Board is

I go to tank for 2 minutes and no-one says a word.....
-did BB came with with a flush/straight draw? most possibly.

• I still beat UTG ?
• I'm still good with ?

(in my head goes: They trick me! they trick me all night with check, check, check ! )


So I .......


(final post late tonight)

 

[JustinInMN]

Now, BB leans forward, stares at UTG stack, lean back, stares at UTG stack again, and raises to $28
UTG: Snap shoves all-in for about $50

This is the action that might have me thinking about folding. But let's think about it a bit more.

I still beat UTG ?

I still think you do based on the provided range. This is starting to feel like slow-played aces or jacks, but it could also be an ace with a diamond that he is turning into a semi-bluff. With the on board it's hard to give him a flush here, but he is representing strength or making an ill-timed bluff.

I'm still good with

Big blind can have all the flushes here not just the jack high ones. All he has done is limp preflop called a small flop bet. If he has a flush the only ones you realistically beat are 5-hi and maybe 4-hi if he's a really loose big blind.

Otherwise, he suspects you are bluffing and is taking a shot at you. You really have to know your player here.

The less bluffy BB is the less I call. The more bluffy, the more I call.

So I .......


(final post late tonight)

Bahahaha.

 

[yone]

Very interesting read. With the range of UTG it is possible to have AK with a k of diamond. Can’t imagine why he wouldn’t reraise on the flop with that on that board. Maybe, regretting just calling with a set of aces; why he snap shoves - can’t fold to $28 and is pot committed on the river.
Agree with @JustinInMN on the big blind. It’s a solid story he is telling; have suited diamonds, out of position - checks flop/call - hits flush on turn and repops. Could be to test you with your table image.

 

[JustinInMN]

I kinda focused on UTG, but we should probably consider the BB more. Could he value two-pair plus this way. It might make sense if he wants to try and put max pressure on either of you to fold a single diamond here. What combos make sense then?

The only hand the 3 realistically improves is A-3. Did he slowplay 88 or A8? Could he have a flush you beat? Can he have bluffs?

So I still say he can have all the flushes, including the nuts here, what share of his range includes the "other stuff" listed?

I think as hero we can also have all the flushes, so I can't make the argument that the 7 hi flush is top of our range, just where does it sit on our range compared to the BB.

It's a tough decision. You really have to have BB ranged as well as UTG to decide.

 

[Jimulacrum]

as @JustinInMN mention, is NOT in the range of UTG for a 5x.
@Jimulacrum @DrStrange : Thank you for your comments so far, very useful


So at this point is when everything became even worse, I hesitate to value bet, because I still do not know what BB is doing here.
For I do not know what reason (chicken?) I decided to bet $7 to build the pot with 2 check/call check/call behind (don't scare the fish)

Now, BB leans forward, stares at UTG stack, lean back, stares at UTG stack again, and raises to $28
UTG: Snap shoves all-in for about $50


Board is

I go to tank for 2 minutes and no-one says a word.....
-did BB came with with a flush/straight draw? most possibly.

• I still beat UTG ?
• I'm still good with ?

(in my head goes: They trick me! they trick me all night with check, check, check ! )


So I .......


(final post late tonight)

Did you notice how BB sized his raise? He checked out UTG's stack and then raised just the right amount so that UTG's shove would reopen the action. Now he can reraise if you call.

That's a massive strength tip-off. I wouldn't be surprised if BB has the nuts or nearly so. This was about the best signal you could ask for to get out. Hell, I've personally made raises like this with the nuts, though I'm not usually so obvious about staring down the short stack's chips.

UTG probably has AA or (or , perhaps), which hurts your equity quite a bit, and BB is basically screaming that he has a flush. Chances are, it's a bigger flush than , and if so, you're drawing dead. On the odd chance he has a smaller flush, you're still only about 80%-ish to win the main pot because UTG is probably drawing to a boat or a bigger diamond.

RUN AWAY! Your opponent has been generous enough to let you escape with the likely smaller flush. It'll be sad if it turns out you were ahead, but overall, I think you'll be saving money by folding here far more often than you'll be folding the best hand.

 

[1A25R]

I kinda focused on UTG, but we should probably consider the BB more

The way he acted (staring the UTG stack twice) made Ding in my head. And I told to myself "you are so sure to beat UTG that you have forget BB"
During the 2 minutes in the tank I made the hand twice. Knowing the guy and his range, he has a piece that fit the flop, he is holding anything between;

KQ off and wait for miracle 10
QJ off but very unlikely
AJ - A8 can be... as well that 88
But as he like suited connectors / / are to consider

If he had AA-KK-QQ he would have re-raised UTG pre flop.

 

[JustinInMN]

But as he like suited connectors / / are to consider

All he's done is defend BB in a 5 way pot and call a small flop raise. I think he can have many more diamond combos than you are listing. Kq,-k8, qj-q8, jt, j9, j8, t9, t8, 98, and maybe 54, 53, 43. So I think that's the obvious part of this villian's range. What non flush hands can take this line. Can he take a dry Kd and turn it into a blocker bluff? (kjo, for example.). Could he (possibly over) value A3 here. Could he slowplay Aces up or a set of 8s?

Seems no matter how you slice it, you need this villian to have a lot of bluffs to make this call. And you can't argue 7 hi flush is the top of hero's range either, you can have all the flushes yourself with this line.

It's starting to look like a fold unless you can really put BB on a lot of bluffs/value you can beat.

 

[1A25R]

So here is the rest of the hand:

I did fold.

BB called the UTG all in

a brick in the river complete the board

Board is

BB show

Spoiler: BB reveals

UTG

Spoiler: UTG shows down

BOOM !

my take away:

• First error : Weak bet at the flop. (I do not need to protect anything is not to me to bet AND a bet of $12/$15 makes more sense and will had different consequences on a C bet at the turn)
• Second error : Bet at the turn not at 3/4 of the pot.
• Third error, only focused on UTG and not on BB.

(note. I'm do not meant that I should have won the pot)

I mean that I fell into my own stupidity; I may have folded anyway but I should feel a bit better if I had avoided above error
I think that the key points are very well resumed by Jimulacrum and JustinInMN

 

[JustinInMN]

So the BB play is a variation of trying to take a shot at your aggressive image. If you knew he had that in him, it's a clear call with a flush. Also from BB perspective he could get the best of both worlds, catch you in a bluff and maybe get UTG to fold a better hand. Obviously he's not folding his strongest hands, but he could fold a lot of his fairly narrow range.

I don't think your flop sizing matters as much as you think. The point is bet a consistent percentage with your value hands or your bluffs. Neither villian is folding their hand and bigger sizing doesn't help you make a better decision on the turn.

The only place I think you (and I) went wrong is underestimating how often BB can bluff here. If he is turning that hand into a bluff (or look at it as "value" you can beat) you can never ever fold a flush here, especially with UTG effectively capped at three aces.

I think your takeways really should be:

1. Be aware of who is capable of making a move and how often
2. Be aware of whether your image is inviting opponents to bluff back at you

The only real mistake you made is on the turn. It's a fold against a never bluffer or in a situation where utg is player that could have some flushes too. But against an apparently wide bluffer, the fold is a bad blunder.

 

[1A25R]

The only place I think you (and I) went wrong is underestimating how often BB can bluff here.

^^This

 

[Jimulacrum]

So BB flopped top pair and then turned it into a weird bluff against two other players on the turn.

You gained some solid information here, though. BB is a loose cannon capable of making bizarre bluffs with marginal hands that are drawing dead. May even be possible that he thought his top pair with meh kicker was good, which is probably an even bigger leak.

 

[yone]

I thought the big blind did an interesting play. His check on the flop, set him up to represent a flush and he did have have an ace which would beat kk or qq. He took advantage of the weak bets from the hero. UTG checked both the flop and turn, which I would have interpreted as pot control because trapping with that board with that many players in the hand can be extremely disastrous. Representing the flush gives him an edge in case UTG was slow playing AK or AQ. So the only hand he had to worry about was AA, not too many people can fold a set.
I would have been more worried about the hero, as those bets don’t look like they were designed to make people fold and was in position to see a free card.
Anyway, loved the post.

 

[1A25R]

thank you everybody for your comments and analysis

 

[jlb2782]

Enjoy these threads and all the info. Thanks.

 

[ando5k]

Regular .25/.50 with the guys

UTG, card dead since a while opens for 2.50 - I put UTG on a premium hand range: AA-KK-AK-AQ (not KQ not TT) : (~$55 behind)
UTG+1 folds but mid position had cal .50 out of turn, she realizes her mistake ans add the last 2, rolling her eyes (obviously she didn't want to play for 5x) (~$50 behind and she rebuy once )
CUT OFF: calls (~$200 behind)
Me @ button : I decide to gamble with due to the mistake of mid position and the call cut off SB or BB will came along SB fold. I want to give a try to the flop. (~$150 behind)
BB Calls (~$80 behind)

5 to see the flop / $12.75 in the pot
FLOP:
Check around to me.

• What do you do?
• It's my call ok regarding the implicit odds ?
• i'll tell you what I did in next post.

UTG doesn't C-bet, therefore if he is slowplaying a monster, you do not want to open the pot back up and have to call his sizing when you can see a free card for your draw. If you had him ahead before the flop, you know he is still ahead after the flop. If he has KK or QQ here, he is liable to check and call small bets for value, or he could have Kd or Qd for a redraw, in which case you can get his chips in the middle on the turn if he stabs with the nut draw. If he has a better flush draw than you on the flop, then he only has KQ of d based on the info you gave on villain. If he indeed has KQd or for that matter, KXd of any kind, your chips will get in when the flush hits anyway and thats just bad luck. He gifted you a chance to hit your draw. Yes, you could in theory take a pot down with a decent bet on the flop or get some chips in for when you hit your draw, but there is way too many hands that hit that flop and slow play or hit that flop and have you drawing to the lone diamond. Plus there are lots of draws that come on that flop that could call whatever you bet. There are better flops to steal than a 2 paint flop with multidraws coming.