Frogzilla
4 of a Kind
At the very latest, should be used on the flop
Let's chat about the Ocean (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Saoliver
- Start date
Jimulacrum
Full House
This sounds like something that could potentially be fun in one of those "Secret Santa" games some folks do around the holidays, where you draw cards / roll dice / whatever to determine weird alternate rules, like red kings split the pot or everyone has to pay if a pair of deuces go to showdown.
On the other extreme, it could be okay in a super-competitive game where the players are very comfortable with difficult/complicated rules. This is assuming that the players have thick skin about this kind of thing.
Outside of those extremes, I have a few issues with applying it to more normal, middle-of-the-road games:
1. It's a bit messy. Small matter, I guess, but it's a weird wrinkle that may break up the flow of the game and strike many players as awkward.
2. Some players (especially the kind who already whinge about their aces being cracked et al) are going to feel like they got screwed when someone calls for the "ocean" and it ruins their hand. Not only that, but if it also creates a new betting round, they may lose even more money, or end up folding the best hand because the growth in pot and bet size scares them off. The bigger the pot, the bigger the anger about it, and the more likely it will turn people off to the game. Being on the losing end of it will tend to feel like the other guy won in a "cheap" way.
3. Lastly, but perhaps most importantly: Every decision-making point in a poker game creates an opportunity for skilled players to gain an advantage. This is the main reason why NLHE is such a bad game for weak players in the first place; every decision is essentially open-ended with regard to amounts, and weak players regularly make serious errors in this area (in addition to errors with regard to the simple call/raise/fold part of the decision). We see this in spades in circus games as well, especially games that have discards, draws, hand splitting, etc.
Now take everything you know about NLHE being bad for weak players, and throw in this "ocean chip." It's yet another opportunity for them to screw up, whether by avoiding it out of fear/confusion or using it in bad spots that favor them only minimally (or even hurt them). Meanwhile, strong and thoughtful players will figure out ways to use it to maximum effect, further increasing their win rates against the weaker players.
As a general rule, don't implement things that will have this kind of effect unless your goal is to end up with a game full of tough players.
On the other extreme, it could be okay in a super-competitive game where the players are very comfortable with difficult/complicated rules. This is assuming that the players have thick skin about this kind of thing.
Outside of those extremes, I have a few issues with applying it to more normal, middle-of-the-road games:
1. It's a bit messy. Small matter, I guess, but it's a weird wrinkle that may break up the flow of the game and strike many players as awkward.
2. Some players (especially the kind who already whinge about their aces being cracked et al) are going to feel like they got screwed when someone calls for the "ocean" and it ruins their hand. Not only that, but if it also creates a new betting round, they may lose even more money, or end up folding the best hand because the growth in pot and bet size scares them off. The bigger the pot, the bigger the anger about it, and the more likely it will turn people off to the game. Being on the losing end of it will tend to feel like the other guy won in a "cheap" way.
3. Lastly, but perhaps most importantly: Every decision-making point in a poker game creates an opportunity for skilled players to gain an advantage. This is the main reason why NLHE is such a bad game for weak players in the first place; every decision is essentially open-ended with regard to amounts, and weak players regularly make serious errors in this area (in addition to errors with regard to the simple call/raise/fold part of the decision). We see this in spades in circus games as well, especially games that have discards, draws, hand splitting, etc.
Now take everything you know about NLHE being bad for weak players, and throw in this "ocean chip." It's yet another opportunity for them to screw up, whether by avoiding it out of fear/confusion or using it in bad spots that favor them only minimally (or even hurt them). Meanwhile, strong and thoughtful players will figure out ways to use it to maximum effect, further increasing their win rates against the weaker players.
As a general rule, don't implement things that will have this kind of effect unless your goal is to end up with a game full of tough players.
A couple thoughts:
1) When someone uses an ocean chip, there's no betting. Just deal ocean and best hand wins. Could keep people from losing even more money and getting butt-hurt.
2) Whoever uses the ocean chip HAS TO use the ocean card to make their best 5 card hand. Other players can use any of the 6 board cards like normal. I think this could possibly work with the ocean chip being free since there's more of a risk.
1) When someone uses an ocean chip, there's no betting. Just deal ocean and best hand wins. Could keep people from losing even more money and getting butt-hurt.
2) Whoever uses the ocean chip HAS TO use the ocean card to make their best 5 card hand. Other players can use any of the 6 board cards like normal. I think this could possibly work with the ocean chip being free since there's more of a risk.
Klobberer
Full House
I don't think I'd like it in NL/PL, but limit? Hell yeah!
trever
Flush
If you had to use it after the flop (before anyone bets) it would be ok.
I would think it both fairer and more interesting to require the Ocean chip to be played *before* the river card is shown. It could be used even earlier in the hand. (Say there is a shove preflop; you could say “I call with an Ocean.” Might make sense, say, if you are calling with a suited ace.)
FDLmold
Royal Flush
1 Everybody gets one ocean chip
2 Cost is variable, depending on size of pot, like 25%
3 Money comes from your pocket straight into the pot (not from stack)
4 Bet river as normal, no ocean betting, just flip it and rip it
2 Cost is variable, depending on size of pot, like 25%
3 Money comes from your pocket straight into the pot (not from stack)
4 Bet river as normal, no ocean betting, just flip it and rip it
If you want to use it in a regular game, I feel like there has to be a real cost for playing it (like maybe 25%) of the pot) and then the other guy (who’s presumably ahead and ready to take a big pot) has to either accept it (because he stands to gain the cost of playing the chip) or deny it, and then pay off the cost of the chip - ie 25% of the pot, or whatever.
I have no interest in playing a serious poker game where a guy can just demand an additional card. But I’m all for trying a serious game where the ocean card is in play, with appropriate costs. (I didn’t see this option in the poll)
I have no interest in playing a serious poker game where a guy can just demand an additional card. But I’m all for trying a serious game where the ocean card is in play, with appropriate costs. (I didn’t see this option in the poll)
OP
OP
Right now, the poll is 20 for and 20 against...which is exactly where I expected PCF to be. 
Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
Way too powerful for such a cheap price as discussed in the OP.
if using it, the person that plays can’t make a bet on the ocean street, only call a bet.
The person using it is usually going to be the one drawing and missed and wants another chance at a massive draw in a huge pot. There should be a comparable cost to that benefit.
The other side would be is someone has a lock high like Aces full of Kings and wants to have someone hit a worse hand that can pay them off if they hit a second best hand. Again in wouldn’t want to give an extra street of betting in this case.
Also you can’t charge the person on the spot to use the chip a certain amount, there is a good chance they will be All-in already.
I think this would be more fun/playable in a limit game than a pot limit game.
if using it, the person that plays can’t make a bet on the ocean street, only call a bet.
The person using it is usually going to be the one drawing and missed and wants another chance at a massive draw in a huge pot. There should be a comparable cost to that benefit.
The other side would be is someone has a lock high like Aces full of Kings and wants to have someone hit a worse hand that can pay them off if they hit a second best hand. Again in wouldn’t want to give an extra street of betting in this case.
Also you can’t charge the person on the spot to use the chip a certain amount, there is a good chance they will be All-in already.
I think this would be more fun/playable in a limit game than a pot limit game.
OP
OP
I hadn't thought about someone using it when they are way ahead and have a lock. That's awesome!
I think that it might only work for limit. We shall see in a few weeks.
markleteenie
4 of a Kind
Maybe it can only be used heads up and the person using the chip forfeits 1/2 the pot immediately for the chance to draw and win the other 1/2 with the Ocean card? Still seems too powerful.
Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
Could 2 people use their chip in the same hand?
one person uses it to get a 6th street and catches their flush. Other person now wants to use it to make a 7th street to try to catch their full house!!!
If you are going Degen, go all the way!!!
one person uses it to get a 6th street and catches their flush. Other person now wants to use it to make a 7th street to try to catch their full house!!!
If you are going Degen, go all the way!!!
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