Learning Limit and Split Pot Games (1 Viewer)

[AH77]

So I basically have no experience playing anything other than nlh but would like to at least develop a general base for limit and split pot games. I've been watching a lot of the mixed game action on poker go and it seems like success in these games is heavily dependent on hand selection rather than simply outplaying people since you are always getting at least like 10 to 1 on a call.

I feel like you can overcome being card dead in nlh by just making moves and outplaying people but I don't see how you can really turn a profit in limit or split pot games without getting hands. Obviously I can see how saving or winning an extra bet here and there leads to long term profits but beyond that, it seems like a real grind. Again, I have no experience in those games so I'm sure there is a ton of nuance that I'm unaware of. What are your guys' thoughts/experiences playing these kinds of games?

 

[Legend5555]

I think they are really fun. You aren't entirely wrong that you need hands. You can't do much if you are card dead or missing draws all the time. You go to showdown a lot more often in limit, so you have to turn over winners. The difference is that everyone is going to showdown a lot more often. And winning and saving those extra bets really matters. Bottom line, most people outside of dedicated limit grinders are generally awful at these games.

If you decide to play limit games, your stakes (blinds) generally need to be higher than those of same blind NL or PL games. Otherwise you will feel like the pots are never big enough. There are 3 core games you should learn if you want to start:

Omaha 8b
7 Card Stud
2-7 Triple Draw

All the other crazy circus game stuff can be somewhat easily understood if you understand the core of these 3 games. As they represent the 3 main types of poker: flop, stud, and draw games. And once you understand how a general split pot game works, then you can start to understand how others work.

 

[AH77]

I think they are really fun. You aren't entirely wrong that you need hands. You can't do much if you are card dead or missing draws all the time. You go to showdown a lot more often in limit, so you have to turn over winners. The difference is that everyone is going to showdown a lot more often. And winning and saving those extra bets really matters. Bottom line, most people outside of dedicated limit grinders are generally awful at these games.

If you decide to play limit games, your stakes (blinds) generally need to be higher than those of same blind NL or PL games. Otherwise you will feel like the pots are never big enough. There are 3 core games you should learn if you want to start:

Omaha 8b
7 Card Stud
2-7 Triple Draw

All the other crazy circus game stuff can be somewhat easily understood if you understand the core of these 3 games. As they represent the 3 main types of poker: flop, stud, and draw games. And once you understand how a general split pot game works, then you can start to understand how others work.

Great response, thanks. I've been really interested in stud, stud 8/OB, and 2-7 lowball even though lowball is technically not limit. Seems like playing these games is the only way to recreate the atmosphere of the poker boom where you could be a winning player by simply knowing the basics. It seems like everyone who plays nlh now has a pretty good understanding of the game and there are not too many people who are completely clueless anymore.

 

[abby99]

Post here. Oh, wait -- you've already done that!

Read. There is so much good stuff available online for free, I wouldn't spend the money on books to start with.

Play free games online. Yes, the poker will be awful, but you'll be able to learn hands-on how the games are played, and you'll see a lot of starting hands and how they work out. Don't pay much attention to strategy when everybody raises/reraises every time the action is on them -- you don't want to develop bad habits.

Play small-stakes real-money games with people who know the games well. This will probably be home games.

I suggest starting with variants of NLHE, since that's the game you know. Try Pineapple and its more common variants (Crazy Pineapple, Lazy Pineapple), to get the feel of being dealt more than two cards. Around the same time, play limit hold'em to become familiar with the betting rules and procedures if fixed-limit games in a game that you're most familiar with. As you gain experience and knowledge, you can branch out to flop games with more cards and to split-pot games. Play, pay attention, and learn -- there is no substitute for playing.

Some hold-em players start with PLO. Experienced PLO players lick their chops. There are plenty of articles that are written about transitioning from NLHE to PLO specifically.

Ask questions, discuss specific hands and general strategies.

Good luck, and HAVE FUN!!!

Edited to add: You certainly can make moves and outplay people in fixed-limit games. However, as in NLHE, making moves and outplaying people who play/bet/raise/call every street of every hand, generally requires having a hand. Poker is poker.

 

[Moxie Mike]

So I basically have no experience playing anything other than nlh...

Here's an email I sent to a few of my NLHE friends after I convinced them to play in my $3-6 FL mixed game for the first time. It's kind of long and unstructured, but you might find it helpful.

Please note this advice is not for advanced players looking to maximize their edge. It's for people looking to minimize mistakes.

In General:

• I saw a lot of patterns typical of holdem players - which is common for people adjusting to different styles of poker.
• 
  
• In split pot games the profit comes from either scooping both the hi and the low (or getting 3/4), or winning half of a pot with a lot of dead money in it. Putting in bets and getting nothing back at showdown is a disaster in split pot games.
• 
  
• In Omaha hi-lo (O8), hands that cannot (or are very unlikely to) make the nuts must be played as cheaply as possible if at all, and need to be played conservatively. Jamming in a bunch of bets with the 3rd (or worse) nut flush when a low is possible is a recipe for an expensive night. Getting to showdown as cheaply as possible is a good strategy with most if not all non-nut hands. This applies to both hi and low.
• 
  
• A good strategy is to avoid putting in a bunch of bets and raises unless you've got the high locked up and there are multiple people in the pot to chop up for the low. Jamming bets in with the nut low is also not always a great thing to do because other players could also have the nut low as well... so unless you've got a good high hand to go with it, it's better to get to showdown on a conservative line.

In terms of betting and raising:

• The vast majority of time you want to be getting in as cheaply as possible with speculative hands, and getting out cheap when you don't flop strongly (or if 4th or 5th street bricks in stud).
• Big pairs in O8 aren't the strong favorite that they are in holdem. Remember that virtually all preflop holdings in O8 need to improve in order to win. Often AAxx or KKxx are barely over a 50% fave to win at showdown, and that number goes way down against multiple opponents. This is in stark contrast to Holdem where one-pair hands (especially top pair) often are enough to win at showdown.
• In limit poker, early street bets and raises are for the purpose of building a pot and getting opponents to put in money when they're at a disadvantage. Since there's usually not a lot of ways to determine this, most early street action should be conservative. This is in contrast to Holdem strategy since by betting and raising the goal isn't to thin the field. It's to get value for your strong hand or draw.
• 
  
• For example, a hand like KK45 in O8 is very marginal in the best of circumstances, since that one pair is not likely to improve and one-pair hands very seldom win the high portion of the pot. On the low side, 45 is unlikely to make a strong enough low to win. Think of it another way - (assuming a low is possible) anyone holding A2, A3, A4, A5, 23, 24, 25, 34 or 35 at showdown will have you beat for low (assuming they're not counterfeited), and unless you made a set, KK by itself is probably not going to hold up for hi. So hands that look good initially (like KK45, or AA89, or 910JK, etc)... really don't play well in O8, especially when a low is possible and there are multiple opponents.
• 
  
• Raising also might scare off some players with weaker holdings that might limp but not call a raise. So even if you've got a monster preflop, it's often advantageous to limp hands like AA23 or A245 to let people limp in with no idea how badly they're crushed. This also allows you to release the hand if the flop comes something like 8910 or something else that completely misses your hand.

Get in cheap, get out cheap.

Examples of hands you should raise in O8:

AA2x
A23x
A26x
Any 3 wheel cards
Suited aces (with low cards preferable)
etc.

• All that said, I've seen arguments from pros that it's strategically non-advantageous to raise preflop in O8 at all. It just depends on your playing style.

• It's not good to chase hi hands when a low is likely to get there. For example, a hand like 89JA should be mucked on an 6-7-K flop. Even though in that scenario you've got an open-ender, a 5 makes a low possible, and a 10 creates broadway redraws. And chances are the turn is going to match one of the suits already on the board, so now a flush draw is possible (if it wasn't already on the flop). So the mindset needs to be that your outs very likely create favorable conditions for someone else.
  
  
• To be fair, just because a third heart hits the board or the board pairs it doesn't automatically mean you're up against a flush or a full house, but you have to give respect to the possibility which inhibits your ability to raise for value. So, often you find yourself resigned to checking and calling in those types of spots.
  

On stud:

• The biggest leak I noticed Friday night was starting hand selection. In stud-hi, your first 3 cards need to be 1) strongly coordinated and 2) potential draws need to be not weakened by exposed cards.
  
  
• For example, say you're dealt (8-10)A rainbow. This isn't necessarily an auto-muck, but if you're facing a raise and/or you're seeing any other cards that would improve your hand in other players' boards, you should probably release.
  
  
• It's pretty difficult to get 3 coordinated cards and you actually need to play tighter than you would in holdem. So you look for some compromises or else you have to play really tight. Say you're dealt (KQ)3 with 2 hearts. If you look around the table and don't see any hearts, kings or queens, that creates much more favorable conditions then if you see your outs all over the place. So you can go ahead and proceed with hands like that knowing that if the next street or two doesn't improve your hand then you'll need to muck. By by itself (KQ)3 is not a good starting hand since one-pair hands don't usually hold up at showdown, you basically have to improve twice and pay a lot of bets to see more cards.
• 
  
• The main difference is that it's not like Holdem where you can take a flop and essentially get 3 more cards for one price. You have to pay each time... and if there are any bets or raises, you easily can have 4 or 5 bets invested before making a hand. It gets expensive pretty quickly if your starting hand selection is poor.
  
  
• Another example is you're dealt a hand like (77)6. It's playable under the right circumstances and is a decent start in hi-lo but needs to be mucked if it remains unimproved or your outs start appearing elsewhere.
• 
  
• So ideally, the 3 cards will all work together. If they don't, 2 of them need to be pretty damn strong to justify playing the hand with a dangler. Obviously, big pairs (split or wired) fall into this category. 3 cards of a single suit, 3 cards to a straight, wired pairs with none of your outs dead, etc. are all decent hands to get involved with.

 

[AH77]

Thanks for all the responses, I appreciate it. I find that watching the game being played is the next best thing to actually playing yourself so I have been studying the play of the mixed games on pokergo. I'm trying to get a home game going soon so hopefully I can convince some of the more serious players to play some mixed games here and there.

 

[Legend5555]

Great response, thanks. I've been really interested in stud, stud 8/OB, and 2-7 lowball even though lowball is technically not limit. Seems like playing these games is the only way to recreate the atmosphere of the poker boom where you could be a winning player by simply knowing the basics. It seems like everyone who plays nlh now has a pretty good understanding of the game and there are not too many people who are completely clueless anymore.

No limit 2-7 single draw is probably my favorite game.

 

[AH77]

No limit 2-7 single draw is probably my favorite game.

It seems impossible to gauge opponent's hand ranges. Just pure reading ability.

 

[Legend5555]

It seems impossible to gauge opponent's hand ranges. Just pure reading ability.

You're right that there is a bit more guessing. But you can still put people on ranges. Those ranges can just be somewhat wide. There are also a lot of spots in NL 2-7 where you have essentially mandatory bluffs. But there is still a lot of skill. Lots of squeezing and being able to read player tendencies. Plus it shows even more why position is the most important thing in poker.

 

[pokerilluminati]

A good resource for split pot games would be Greg Vail. His books come from a NL Holdem background to teach split pot games. Very insightful and easy to read imo.