Large or small cash set?

50Geez

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Hi PCFers. I have a large 25/50c and 1/2 NLH set so needing and making change is rarely needed. Now i want a Paulson set $$$. How will it effect the game with less chips same bank?
 

markleteenie

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What size sets are you talking about?


A standard 600 chip configuration for a cash set often is:
100 x fracs (25c)
200 x $1
200 $5
80 x $25
20 x $100

If your game plays smaller, you can get away with less.
I could probably run a 400 piece setup for my smaller, more social games:
100 x 25c
160 x $1
100 x $5
40 x $25
 

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It all depends on how large your buyins are at .25/.50 and 1/2 and how many players you have.

If I understand your question correctly, you want to know how having less chips will affect play. Less chips means more oversize chips in play which means more making change. Making change slows down the game considerably when you do not have experienced players or a dedicated dealer. If you want to upgrade to a Paulson set at the cost of sacrificing the pace of game, know that not everyone will be as thrilled with the upgrade as you will be.
 

JustinInMN

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Fewer (and larger value) chips will also promote tighter play. People generally play looser when chip values are small and in great abundance.

This is my observation as well, and it surprises me that I seem to be one of the few hosts on PCF that hosts 0.50-0.50 using singles as the workhorse and very few fives. (I usually do something like 6*0.50, 42*1, 3*5 for a 60 buy in.)
 

JustinInMN

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Hi PCFers. I have a large 25/50c and 1/2 NLH set so needing and making change is rarely needed. Now i want a Paulson set $$$. How will it effect the game with less chips same bank?

I guess it would help to know your frame of reference for "large" and "small." This is a pretty wide range of stakes. @markleteenie 's suggestion for 600 is what I would consider the bare minimum, but really it provides barely 1 barrel of workhorse chips per player for single table. Any smaller would be unworkable for that range, imo.

If you consider a 50c frac you could probably get by with something like this.

0.50 * 60
1 * 140
5 * 300
25 * 80
100 * 20

This would be the perfect breakdown for 0.50-1, and good for 1-2 as well. It would be okay for 0.50-0.50 (singles might feel a little scarce). But an 800 or 1000 chip set would be better of course.
 

allforcharity

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Rule #1: you need at least as many chips required to cover your bank for the night, plus a little extra. The "little extra" can be made with just a few high denom chips, so it doesn't really inflate the cost of the set.

Rule #2: you need a minimum number of fracs to cover your lowest blinds suitable for the number of players you host at once. Don't be afraid to make change, it's not a big deal. At 0.25/0.50, you probably only need 8 quarters per player, so 80 at a 10-player game. Most people round to 100 just to make it one rack, as the cost difference between having that extra 20 fracs is usually not a huge deal (unless we're talking original Jack Detroit fracs or modifying Sunset Beach, then you're on your own for budget).

Guideline #1: since you want to cover both a 0.25/0.50 and a 1/2 game, you'll need plenty of both $1s and $5s, as they are separate workhorses for each game.

Guideline #2: don't get a large amount of $100s unless your game really needs it to cover bank and your game gets that big. Remember, each barrel covers $2000.

In general, I would not use less than 500 chips to cover that cash spread. But you won't necessarily need 600 if you spread your denoms well. In your case, I would keep the fracs lower and raise the balance of $5s a little higher.

Remember, chip efficiency means you can afford better with a set budget.
 

Jambine

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There is an exception on PCF that fewer chips are an acceptable sacrifice in the name of going for quality. I think that's the essence of the OP and the reason breakdown threads are valuable.
Yes, it is a serious answer to the OP.

Which of these starting stacks is more likely to result in a better .25/.50 NLH game?
#1) 8 $0.25 / 18 $1.00 / 6 $5.00 total 32 each = 320 chip set minimum
#2) 20 $0.25 / 40 $1.00 / 1 $5.00 total 61 each = 610 chip set minimum

#1 is likely to play very low and slow
#2 is worth more than twice the price (a big consideration before starting a new chip set)
 

AnteAndy

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Yes, it is a serious answer to the OP.

Which of these starting stacks is more likely to result in a better .25/.50 NLH game?
#1) 8 $0.25 / 18 $1.00 / 6 $5.00 total 32 each = 320 chip set minimum
#2) 20 $0.25 / 40 $1.00 / 1 $5.00 total 61 each = 610 chip set minimum

#1 is likely to play very low and slow
#2 is worth more than twice the price (a big consideration before starting a new chip set)

Never saw how #1 would create slow action. I play in several different groups, with breakdowns similar to #1, but with 12 fracs, 17 $1's. People were never afraid to use whichever physical chip amounts as long as they have the amount of total cash value they bought in with and use currently in game. They also prefer not to have so many physical chips so they could not clutter the table and read the pots easier.
 

JustinInMN

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Which of these starting stacks is more likely to result in a better .25/.50 NLH game?
#1) 8 $0.25 / 18 $1.00 / 6 $5.00 total 32 each = 320 chip set minimum
#2) 20 $0.25 / 40 $1.00 / 1 $5.00 total 61 each = 610 chip set minimum

#1 is likely to play very low and slow
#2 is worth more than twice the price (a big consideration before starting a new chip set)

Personally set #2 is too many 0.25s. Typically those chips only get used on the early streets and would otherwise sit in stacks. 8-12/player is the butter zone for me on these. Otherwise I whole-heartedly agree on the right quantity of singles for a .25-.50 game.

The problem the original post poses is that we are trying to cover a pretty wide range of games different in stake by a factor of 4. Which means quantities that support two denoms of workhorse chips. Fives are too big to be the workhorse at the low end of the range, ones are basically blind chips only at the higher end. It can be done tightly in 600 chips if accepting one barrel of work-horse chips and larger amounts of high value chips are acceptable. But as in your #2 example, I prefer to target two barrels of workhorse chips per player, but that probably means 1000 chips total to cover the range.
 

upNdown

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Guideline #1: since you want to cover both a 0.25/0.50 and a 1/2 game, you'll need plenty of both $1s and $5s, as they are separate workhorses for each game.
I’ve found that $1s and $5s tend to be co-workhorses in a good .25/.50 game, but this will vary. I wouldn’t exceed 200 $1’s for either stakes.
 

BGinGA

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Yes, it is a serious answer to the OP.

Which of these starting stacks is more likely to result in a better .25/.50 NLH game?
#1) 8 $0.25 / 18 $1.00 / 6 $5.00 total 32 each = 320 chip set minimum
#2) 20 $0.25 / 40 $1.00 / 1 $5.00 total 61 each = 610 chip set minimum

#1 is likely to play very low and slow
#2 is worth more than twice the price (a big consideration before starting a new chip set)
Middle ground for me. And equal starting stacks are pointless. I give out barrels of quarters and $1s until they are all on the table.

100 x 25c, 240 x $1, 260 x $5 = 600 chips
 

50Geez

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It all depends on how large your buyins are at .25/.50 and 1/2 and how many players you have.

If I understand your question correctly, you want to know how having less chips will affect play. Less chips means more oversize chips in play which means more making change. Making change slows down the game considerably when you do not have experienced players or a dedicated dealer. If you want to upgrade to a Paulson set at the cost of sacrificing the pace of game, know that not everyone will be as thrilled with the upgrade as you will be.
Yes you are correct. That is what i was scared of. Guess I will same and try to build a 1000 Paulson set. Thanks

What size sets are you talking about?


A standard 600 chip configuration for a cash set often is:
100 x fracs (25c)
200 x $1
200 $5
80 x $25
20 x $100

If your game plays smaller, you can get away with less.
I could probably run a 400 piece setup for my smaller, more social games:
100 x 25c
160 x $1
100 x $5
40 x $25
Thanks for your help

I guess it would help to know your frame of reference for "large" and "small." This is a pretty wide range of stakes. @markleteenie 's suggestion for 600 is what I would consider the bare minimum, but really it provides barely 1 barrel of workhorse chips per player for single table. Any smaller would be unworkable for that range, imo.

If you consider a 50c frac you could probably get by with something like this.

0.50 * 60
1 * 140
5 * 300
25 * 80
100 * 20

This would be the perfect breakdown for 0.50-1, and good for 1-2 as well. It would be okay for 0.50-0.50 (singles might feel a little scarce). But an 800 or 1000 chip set would be better of course.
Thanks yes i use about 800 now
 

50Geez

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It's funny my player with careers play 25/50c and average jobs pay 1/2. There are tons rebuys in the 25/50c I guess Im scared there will be less action with larger chips in play
 

JustinInMN

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It's funny my player with careers play 25/50c and average jobs pay 1/2. There are tons rebuys in the 25/50c I guess Im scared there will be less action with larger chips in play

So I might suggest this if you can swing 800

60 * 0.50
240 * 1
400 * 5
80 * 25
20 * 100

Switch the 0.25-0.50 game to 0.50-0.50. Gets you more singles for your smaller game, but also 2000 in fives for the bigger games.

Also if it's used Paulsons you are after fracs are always tough but 0.50 is more common than 0.25. Or you can look to relabel of course.
 

50Geez

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I still think 600 chips can cover both 0.25/0.50 and 1/2. The cost difference between 600 and 1000 can be staggering.
I seeing what you are saying in the classifieds. So I will take all of the advice and get 600 and very slow build.
 

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Two barrels of workhorse chips per player are a nice luxury but not necessary, IMO. More than that could end up being cumbersome, actually.
To cover all stakes for 10 players I 'd say 800 chips:
100x Non-Denominated fracs (to be used either as .25 or as .50)
200x $1
300x $5
160x $20 or $25
40x $100

Not cheap if in clay, either Paulson or CPC custom (there is always the option of off-the-shelf CPCs, including the Key Wests).

If 600, then
80x ND fracs
200x $1
200x $5
100x $20 or $25
20x $100
 

gopherblue

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You definitely don’t need more than 100 fracs in a full ring game. More just get in the way and are a waste of money and space if you are trying to maximize your breakdown efficiency.

This fella’s advice is wise, thoughtful and without peer on this very topic; in addition he is a hell of a guy and good looking to boot:

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/need-help-with-cash-set-breakdown.6473/#post-67892

If you want even more flexibility (and future-proof your set) get 1000 in a 100/200/400/200/100 breakdown, but honestly, you can get by with fewer.

I am not wrong. ;)
 

50Geez

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Two barrels of workhorse chips per player are a nice luxury but not necessary, IMO. More than that could end up being cumbersome, actually.
To cover all stakes for 10 players I 'd say 800 chips:
100x Non-Denominated fracs (to be used either as .25 or as .50)
200x $1
300x $5
160x $20 or $25
40x $100

Not cheap if in clay, either Paulson or CPC custom (there is always the option of off-the-shelf CPCs, including the Key Wests).

If 600, then
80x ND fracs
200x $1
200x $5
100x $20 or $25
20x $100
Thanks going to try to build the 800. I like your amounts. Starting with a 600
 

codeman00

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I too have found that you can kind of increase the $ action by the quantity and value of chips on the table. For our $0.25/$0.50 NLHE game, I start by giving everyone at the table a barrel (20) quarters. I have since realized that with a lot of quarters on the table, there are a lot of limps with quarters. I've noticed that if I limit the quarters at the table more betting is done with dollars and the bets begin to be higher. As the game gets going later in the evening, I color up the quarters to half of the original amount and the game continues with more betting action. So it just depends on if you want the game to play like a $0.25/$0.50 game, 20 quarters per starting stack. If you want the game to play bigger, go down to 10 quarters per player.
 

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Those are the same stakes my group plays. Our usual game is 0.25/0.50 with buy ins ranging from $40 - $100. Once in a while we get a group to play 1/2.

Start with minimum a 600 chip set
100 - 0.25
200 - $1
200 - $5
80 - $25
20 - $100

Over time you can add more $5 chips, you don't have to do it all at once. I love having at least 400 $5 chips as I find in both games that becomes the workhorse chip for our group (your games may vary, but based on above sounds similar to mine). Having a large stack of $5s is more fun and I think it adds more action to the game. While it's easy to see that someone has a stack of $25 which is hundreds of dollars, there's some psychological effect of seeing someone with a mountain of $5 chips that makes you want to go after them. Seeing a $700 stack that's only two barrels isn't the same as seeing 7 - 8 barrels to make that same amount.

I usually start my group with $40 standard. If they buy in for more I give them more $5 chips
8 - 0.25
12 - $1
5 - $5

With rebuys I give between 4 - 8 fracs and slowly give out less $1. As the night goes on I see less and less betting with the fracs and usage of $1 decreases as well. Again you don't have to buy all the chips at once. 600 chips can handle most games, just add more $5 over time to get that perfect playing set.
 

codeman00

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More specifically, we start out with $40 buy ins.
My set is about 600 chips. Although I have spares to modify the 600 if needed. Remove a barrel of $5 and add a barrel of $20, etc.
(200) $0.25
(150) $1
(230) $5
(20) $20

Starting stacks
20- $0.25
15 - $1
4 - $5
All other rebuys are done with $5's. I have some $20's too but they never get into play. Usually there's $800 max of buyins in my game.

By having (200) $0.25 fracs, it gives me flexibility in case we have 2 tables of cash. (100) fracs go to one table and (100) to the other...then when tables are combined, I color up half of the fracs when they get to one person's stack.
 

allforcharity

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I think 2 tables of cash allows for even more efficiencies with 160x 0.25 (80 per table, 8 per player). The extra couple barrels can go to your $5 workhorses or the $20/25 to increase your bank to accommodate the 1/2 games more comfortably (although at 2 tables I would be looking at about 800-1000 chips total).
 
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