KQ suited, late position (2 Viewers)

[Schmendr1ck]

That’s how I feel - it can be a bottomless well, and tough to climb out of, once you’re a few buy-ins down.

I usually set a stop-loss in cash games (2-3 BI) for two reasons. The first, as stated, is that once you're in a deep hole, it becomes more and more difficult to climb out. The second is that I often find myself playing non-optimally when stuck a lot, so a stop-loss helps me avoid putting myself in that position.

 

[upNdown]

I usually set a stop-loss in cash games (2-3 BI) for two reasons. The first, as stated, is that once you're in a deep hole, it becomes more and more difficult to climb out. The second is that I often find myself playing non-optimally when stuck a lot, so a stop-loss helps me avoid putting myself in that position.

Me too, but I've come to realize I'm just a shitty cash player. I lack the patience. In a tournament, with a clock running, I can control myself and be patient when patience is required and make moves when it's time to do so. In a cash game setting, I haven't figured out how to harness that self-control.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

What Chippy says makes a lot of sense, maybe especially in retrospect.
Part of it is overall image too. I play most of my tournanments in this cardroom. In a game like this, with 57 people, I probably recognize 35 or 40 of them, and have worthwhile experience with probably half the field.

It's probably different for me since I only play in cardrooms about 2-3 times a month, but I've found that my results improved a lot when I started giving less consideration to what I think my table image is. Not that I ignore it entirely, of course, but I would often use my image as an excuse to make bad calls when everything else about the situation told me to fold. At low stakes NL, most players aren't making image-based plays for all their chips.

It's a small population. If I start getting an image as a guy who will lay that one down, that will be exploited.

So just fold and muck. I don't see how this will affect your image or allow others to exploit you - they don't know if you c-bet air or folded two pair.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Me too, but I've come to realize I'm just a shitty cash player. I lack the patience. In a tournament, with a clock running, I can control myself and be patient when patience is required and make moves when it's time to do so. In a cash game setting, I haven't figured out how to harness that self-control.

I'm exactly the opposite.

In tournaments, I always feel the pressure of the growing blinds, and I feel like I need to play very aggressively with a wide range to avoid folding myself to death.

In a cash game, I can be extremely patient through a long run of crap, knowing that one or two hands often make the difference between a big win and a big loss for the session.

 

[BGinGA]

A smaller c-bet does make it easier to get away from the hand, but villain doesn't necessarily shove over a smaller bet. He may just raise, or even flat and then bet the turn, or flat and check again and let you hang yourself later.

I'm seeing stacks eventually getting in the middle regardless, which is not uncommon for top-pair good kicker vs middle set in tournament play with midrange-sized stacks.

Even though my unofficial motto is to never call for all of my chips with just a pair.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

A smaller c-bet does make it easier to get away from the hand, but villain doesn't necessarily shove over a smaller bet. He may just raise, or even flat and then bet the turn, or flat and check again and let you hang yourself later.

I'm seeing stacks eventually getting in the middle regardless, which is not uncommon for top-pair good kicker vs middle set in tournament play with midrange-sized stacks.

Even though my unofficial motto is to never call for all of my chips with just a pair.

I don't know if stacks need to get in the middle. I mean form the villain's perspective, what is hero betting 10k with? I think KQ has to be at the absolute bottom of his range, more likely when people over-bet like that, they have KK or maybe even AA. So if you know you have the bottom of your range, and are getting shoved on, I hardly think getting stacks in with top pair second kicker is inevitable. and like @Schmendr1ck said, I don't see how it hurts his image, just muck your hand. No need to show.

 

[BGinGA]

Only way I'm overbetting this pot is with QQ. And probably not then, either.

I could find a laydown here on the flop, unless I'd seen the villain previously make maniac plays with lesser hands (66-JJ and not putting hero on a Q, getting a lot of pairs to fold).

But probably not able to avoid getting it in on the turn here with the heart draw added.

 

[Quad Johnson]

And this is why I prefer cash games to tournaments. Once you're crippled you're just waiting to find a decent hand to go with, which is just a miserable state of affairs.

I know a lot of people that can't play decent poker beyond 50 BBs.

Because of this, they much prefer tournaments that start with 100 bigs and go up from there. When your stack is ~30 bigs for the majority of the game, play almost becomes robot like easy without much thought process.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Only way I'm overbetting this pot is with QQ. And probably not then, either.

I could find a laydown here on the flop, unless I'd seen the villain previously make maniac plays with lesser hands (66-JJ and not putting hero on a Q, getting a lot of pairs to fold).

But probably not able to avoid getting it in on the turn here with the heart draw added.

true, if played differently, I think there's a good chance we get it in on the turn. But as played, if we think it through we have to believe we are way behind on the flop.

 

[jemfernandez]

On a board this dry, a 10k bet here would certainly fold out all of Villians air, draws (shouldn’t really have A3, A5, 35 here), marginal made hands such as A2, A4, Underpairs and Villain would continue with QJ, QK. I find it uncommon in a tournament environment that a skilled Villain would play suited connector, or Ax suited type hands with two limpers still to act. AA-JJ, AQ+ (Maybe AJ) would be 4betting. Most pairs 66-TT would flat here.

In my opinion, Villain jamming after hero overbets the pot shows a lot of strength. Villain also could have played AA this way expecting limpers to either come along, or backraise (yuks but I find this common in lesser skilled games). I think this would be bottom of Villains range here once he jams and Hero is pretty close to the top of his range.

This is one of the few spots Hero could have found a fold. Any other line would probably have ended up with stacks in the middle by the river. Just by thinking what hands are jamming here and trying working out Villains bluff range vs value range and how we fare against that.

In a tournament with 19bb Is still quite playable and Hero can still find spots to steal and double up.

 

[k9dr]

It's never too late - you can't eventually win if you don't survive

 

[JustinInMN]

I'm sorry the notion that there's any getting away form this hand after the flop is absurd.

This is the 5th best hand you can show up with here given the action (QQ, AA, KK, and AQ would be the other candidates) meaning if you fold this you are basically giving villain permission to win every pot in a board like this unless you have top set, unless this guy never ever check-raises without a set. Yes villian can have 22, 44 in his range certainly, but he can also have a lot of Qx

I think overbetting the flop is a mistake because 30-50% accomplishes the same thing, and you can use that sizing for a lot of different holdings you can have like 99-JJ, AK, AJ. These are the hands you can probably fold to a check-raise, but using the same sizing when you have value balances your play better.

But unless this guy is a never-bluffer, this is a never fold.