KQ suited, late position (1 Viewer)

[upNdown]

we just got off break in this $50/$50/$50.
Starting stacks are 15k - players are allowed 2 rebuys or one rebuy and one $20k addon at the break. Going into level 6, 54 of 57 players alive. Blinds will go up aggressively from here.
Hero was up and down through the first 5 rounds, image was aggressive, not too tight, but not loose either. Had been all in twice before the break, survived with 16l and added on for 20k, so was just below average at 36k.
No easy players at this table - all very competent tournament players. B.B. is kind of LAGish, but more of an action player. Hero has seen him build stacks and lose stacks in other tournaments, he likes to be in pots and plays well post-flop.
Blinds 600/1200
Two players (full table) limp, hero is two off the button and looks at the king and queen of hearts.
Raise, limp, fold?

 

[upNdown]

The math of effective stacks escapes hero, but hero is well aware of the implications. The shortest stack at the table is probably about 28k, do stack sizes aren’t a big consideration here.

 

[Coyote]

Raise, but not too much, to gather information, especially from the chief villain on the BB. To just limp may cost you a lot of money later and to fold right away is a pity with this hand.
Just show the bastard honestly you 're not totally unarmed and see what happens.
Actually, as a total noob T player, it's you opinion on my view I would like to hear

 

[derekdd23]

Never fold
Never limp
Always raise, with 2 limpers a bigger than normal raise is necessary, 3500. Play post flop in position.

 

[Ellasdaddy]

I’d raise a very healthy amount here without hesitation, prepared to flat a reraise out of the blinds and play position.

Edit: @derekdd23 beat me to it.

 

[BGinGA]

Raise to 4000.

 

[v1pe]

Slam dunk raise, 3500 I think is a good size.

 

[upNdown]

No reason to belabor the preflop talk.
Hero makes it 3600 to go.
B.B. thinks for about 3 seconds and flats.
Limpers fold

Flop

BB checks
Pot is 7800
Hero has 32800 behind, with BB has about 45k
Action?

BB is middle aged white guy wearing fedora and sunglasses. Hero has enough experience with villain to know he’s a good card player who plays fearlessly, sometimes to his benefit, sometimes to his detriment.

 

[jemfernandez]

Bet small. 3200. Hero flopped really well but can’t get called by much worse. Let BB call with a wide range. We only really worry about one overcard on the turn.

 

[colter ripton]

I'm betting something in the 5k range

 

[DrStrange]

fair warning - I am not a competent tournament player. Who can say if I know what I am talking about?

I have no idea what a $50/$50/$50 is.

I wonder why Hero adds-on playing a tough table to end up with a less than average stack. Could be the price was too good to turn down?

Yes I think a preflop raise is proper.

Hero creates an SPR of ~4, right at the point of pot commitment for top pair / good kicker. I think Hero is going to feel trapped in this hand if he takes one more bet. For sure two more bets locks Hero in.

Hero flops good. A standard c-bet is in order. I know tournament style these days is often micro bets. < shrug > maybe the better players will want to bet something like 2,500 into the 7,800 pot. Me not knowing better thinks @colter ripton has the best plan with a 64% pot bet.

Let's step back and consider how things look to villain. This is a bone dry c-betting flop. Q 4 2 rainbow misses a bunch of hands. It might make someone think a check/raise bluff could take down a lot of pots. Villain is a skilled action oriented LAGish player capable of making a lot of moves. So I think Hero is committed to stack off on the this flop facing a raise.

Go get 'em tiger! There are worse hills to die upon -=- DrStrange

 

[upNdown]

$50/$50/$50 means you pay $50 for your 15k starting stack, with two more $50 buys available. One can rebuy another 15k for $50 at any point, or do that twice. But if one reaches the break after level 5 with a buy option left, they can add-on 20K chips for $50. Hero played his initial 15k stack up to 24k, down to 8k, and made it to the end of level 5 with 16,400 chips. So at that point he could add-on 20K for $50, and could have also rebought another 15k for another $50 - hero chose just the 20k addon.
It's an interesting tournament with a lot of action early on, because of the available rebuys. The average person is probably in for around $125, which means half the field buys 3 times, half twice. The blinds escalate 50% per 20 minute level after the break, so it moves quickly once everybody's done all their buying.

 

[derekdd23]

Bet small. 3200. Hero flopped really well but can’t get called by much worse. Let BB call with a wide range. We only really worry about one overcard on the turn.

I like the down bet here a ton. You have what is the best hand about 99% of the time. The down bet allows you to get value from floats and allows your opponent to bluff raise. If he raises you can flat and just call down pretty comfortably.

 

[PlaidDragon]

1) Blinds 600/1200
2) Two players (full table) limp,
3) hero is two off the button and looks at the king and queen of hearts.
4) Raise, limp, fold?

Make it 3000 to go. Limpers bad. Blinds Bad. Button bad. You want to isolate one of them... not several.

That may not be enough of a bet to get you only one opponent but it may scare away limpers or blinds who want to try and make a draw.

 

[upNdown]

Hero doesn't mind admitting that hero doesn't have much interest in mixing it up with this villain. Hero is happy to end this one quickly and collect his profits, so hero tosses out one orange 10k chip.
Villain, from the far end of the table, leans in to look and says "is that a bet of ten thousand?"
Dealer confirms.
Villain does not waste much time pushing his stack into the middle.

So I just got check raised by the guy I would most expect to check raise me. He's got me stacked, and he'll have about 10K left if he loses. Since he was in the blinds, he could literally have anything. Because he called a decent preflop raise, I'm inclined to believe he at least has cards worth playing. Probably? If he's got aces or kings, he's got me. But those are unlikely, given that he flatted preflop, with two limpers yet to act. So if he's ahead, he's most likely got a set - two pair seems unlikely with this flop. He's unlikely to have queens, but he could have a set of fours or twos. Or he just played two decent cards - AK, AJ, A10, and he doesn't believe an overbet at this point. Or he's got crap, but he didn't like getting pushed around on his big blind, and now he's pushing back.
These are the thoughts racing through my head.
Also, If I fold, I'm down to 19bb. This tournament plays pretty fast and loose for the next few levels, which isn't great for a short stack.
If I call and win, I'm up over 70K, which is a good place to be, when the shorter stacks start playing fast and loose.
And I'm pretty sure I'm ahead right now, with the back door flush draw, just in case.

Call or fold?

 

[DrStrange]

Hero's over bet is normally polarizing. Obviously it isn't this hand, but villain doesn't know that. The question to me is guessing what villain is thinking about hero's holding and why such a big bet. I note that Hero has been rather aggressive with the ups and downs that go with it.

I am going with call expecting Hero to have the best hand. I am significantly influenced by Hero's table image. Hero's hand is somewhat better than his range for the play - it is the sort of bet that takes down a pot with air vs a dry flop where no one is semi-bluffing.

Good luck -=- DrStrange

 

[BGinGA]

Hero makes it 3600 to go.
B.B. thinks for about 3 seconds and flats.
Limpers fold

Flop

BB checks
Pot is 7800
Hero has 32800 behind, with BB has about 45k
Action?

One of three lines I typically take here:

• 50%: standard size (for me) c-bet, around 75% pot or 5500 in this spot. Gonna think hard if I get check-raised, but probably calling up to all-in.
• 25%: small size (for me) c-bet, around 33% pot or 3000 in this spot. Same response if check-raised, but both expecting it and calling it more often than with my 'standard' c-bet size.
• 25%: check back, which does two things -- saves me a bet/decision if he's slow-playing a monster (22, 44, QQ, KK, AA, or even AQ) however unlikely, and gives him a green light to take a stab at the pot on the turn if he isn't (allowing me to raise unless an ace hits).

I'll do this with most of my ranges on a dry flop in position with these stack sizes vs a skilled player, making it very difficult for any villain to narrow my range based on my flop play.

Hero doesn't mind admitting that hero doesn't have much interest in mixing it up with this villain. Hero is happy to end this one quickly and collect his profits, so hero tosses out one orange 10k chip.
Villain, from the far end of the table, leans in to look and says "is that a bet of ten thousand?"
Dealer confirms.
Villain does not waste much time pushing his stack into the middle.

So I just got check raised by the guy I would most expect to check raise me. He's got me stacked, and he'll have about 10K left if he loses. Since he was in the blinds, he could literally have anything. Because he called a decent preflop raise, I'm inclined to believe he at least has cards worth playing. Probably? If he's got aces or kings, he's got me. But those are unlikely, given that he flatted preflop, with two limpers yet to act. So if he's ahead, he's most likely got a set - two pair seems unlikely with this flop. He's unlikely to have queens, but he could have a set of fours or twos. Or he just played two decent cards - AK, AJ, A10, and he doesn't believe an overbet at this point. Or he's got crap, but he didn't like getting pushed around on his big blind, and now he's pushing back.
These are the thoughts racing through my head.
Also, If I fold, I'm down to 19bb. This tournament plays pretty fast and loose for the next few levels, which isn't great for a short stack.
If I call and win, I'm up over 70K, which is a good place to be, when the shorter stacks start playing fast and loose.
And I'm pretty sure I'm ahead right now, with the back door flush draw, just in case.

Call or fold?

Call. Decent chance you are ahead, with usually some outs if you aren't. He may be playing QK/QJ/QT or pocket pairs 55-JJ and just doesn't believe you have a Queen.

I'd rather have the big stack or go home than hobble with just <20bb in this structure.

 

[WedgeRock]

Call. Decent chance you are ahead, with usually some outs if you aren't. He may be playing QK/QJ/QT or pocket pairs 55-JJ and just doesn't believe you have a Queen.

I'd rather have the big stack or go home than hobble with just <20bb in this structure.

This.

 

[derekdd23]

You have near the top of your range with a good portion of your stack out there already. Unless you have a dead on read you have to call.

 

[WedgeRock]

I'm assuming OP got felted in this hand and is looking for other lines that he could have used to get away from this hand....

 

[upNdown]

I'm assuming OP got felted in this hand and is looking for other lines that he could have used to get away from this hand....

Ding ding!

I'd rather have the big stack or go home than hobble with just <20bb in this structure.

This, absolutely. I typically play deeper tournaments and I find A LOT of folds. But for this tournament in this situation against this villain, I’d make the call every time.

I called. He tabled 4 4. Turn was a heart, just to torture mine, but his set held.

In retrospect, I could have played the hand more sanely post-flop and maybe survived, but I think that heart on the turn (another undercard) would have cost me, and the result might have been the same.

 

[upNdown]

It’s a funny thing. I’d been getting clobbered by bad luck lately. Just getting rivered out of every tournament, so badly. At least 5 in a row - horrible suckout after horrible suckout, usually twice - one to knock me down and another to knock me out.
This loss actually felt almost good. It’s kinda nice to make a bad call and get coolered, instead of watching your aces get cracked AGAIN and driving home, cursing the dark cloud of bad luck you can’t control.
So I’m good with this one. Ha!

 

[AWenger]

Pot is 7800 Hero has 32800 behind

I know tournament style these days is often micro bets. < shrug > maybe the better players will want to bet something like 2,500 into the 7,800 pot.

Make it 3000 to go.

One of three lines I typically take here:

• 50%: standard size (for me) c-bet, around 75% pot or 5500 in this spot. Gonna think hard if I get check-raised, but probably calling up to all-in.
• 25%: small size (for me) c-bet, around 33% pot or 3000 in this spot. Same response if check-raised, but both expecting it and calling it more often than with my 'standard' c-bet size.
• 25%: check back, which does two things -- saves me a bet/decision if he's slow-playing a monster (22, 44, QQ, KK, AA, or even AQ) however unlikely, and gives him a green light to take a stab at the pot on the turn if he isn't (allowing me to raise unless an ace hits).

^^ some good advice here.

In some of the tournaments I've seen on TV or PokerGo, I've noticed players a strategy of betting much smaller relative to the pot in tournaments versus cash games, especially in some of the high-roller tournaments. One thing this can accomplish is to not bloat the pot and avoid pot committing yourself when deep stacked.

If you can lose the minimum on a hand, you're still in the tournament. I think the only way you can get away from this hand is to bet much, much, smaller on the flop, or even check. Once you bet the 10k on the flop, which is about 1/3 your remaining stack, and also looks fishy from Villian's point of view, its hard to fold to a raise in this spot.

Hero is happy to end this one quickly and collect his profits, so hero tosses out one orange 10k chip.
Villain, from the far end of the table, leans in to look and says "is that a bet of ten thousand?"

Think of the hands that Villian would fold to a 10k bet. Then think whether those same hands would fold to a bet of 8k, or 6k, or 4k, or even 2k. You can commit way fewer chips to the pot to get the same desired outcome, especially on a board this dry.

 

[Kain8]

And this is why I prefer cash games to tournaments. Once you're crippled you're just waiting to find a decent hand to go with, which is just a miserable state of affairs.

 

[BGinGA]

Yeah, but when you're crippled in a cash game, you're either throwing more money into the fire or you're broke.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Usually when you over-bet a board and get jammed on, you're facing a monster. Especially a dry board like that, I would have to think AQ would be the very low end of his range, and deuces and fours would make up most of the rest. You can't even put combo draws in his range since it's a rainbow flop. I know it hurts to fold this seemingly strong hand, especially when you have invested so much in the pot, but what do you think he is possibly doing this with that you have beat?

 

[upNdown]

Yeah, but when you're crippled in a cash game, you're either throwing more money into the fire or you're broke.

That’s how I feel - it can be a bottomless well, and tough to climb out of, once you’re a few buy-ins down.
With tournaments, your losses are limited, and even when you get short, if you pick the right spots and catch a bit of luck, things can turn around quickly.

 

[WedgeRock]

Usually when you over-bet a board and get jammed on, you're facing a monster. Especially a dry board like that, I would have to think AQ would be the very low end of his range, and deuces and fours would make up most of the rest. You can't even put combo draws in his range since it's a rainbow flop. I know it hurts to fold this seemingly strong hand, especially when you have invested so much in the pot, but what do you think he is possibly doing this with that you have beat?

So you can fold to the shove, against this villain, when you're pretty sure your ahead, leaving yourself with 19 bigs?

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

So you can fold to the shove, against this villain, when you're pretty sure your ahead, leaving yourself with 19 bigs?

If I thought I was ahead I would call. It's been my experience that when I overbet the pot like that, and get shoved on (especially on a dry board such as this one) I'm not ahead. 19 bigs isn't much, but it's workable.

 

[upNdown]

So you can fold to the shove, against this villain, when you're pretty sure your ahead, leaving yourself with 19 bigs?

What Chippy says makes a lot of sense, maybe especially in retrospect.
Part of it is overall image too. I play most of my tournanments in this cardroom. In a game like this, with 57 people, I probably recognize 35 or 40 of them, and have worthwhile experience with probably half the field. It's a small population. If I start getting an image as a guy who will lay that one down, that will be exploited.