Jamming KK pre-flop >100 BB (2 Viewers)

[boltonguy]

Wanted to get feedback from the community.

Hero is in LJ (6-max, anonymous) with KK and opens to 3BB.
Villain on BN 3 bets to 9BB.
Does Hero jam 120 BB or 4 bet 27BB and see a flop if V calls and save some money if an A comes on the flop?

I'm asking for a friend who just jammed his KK for 120BB and had them cracked by AQo. A came on the flop.

Pokercruncher says we're 87/13 to win here so this is just a bad beat - but it makes me think that maybe a 4 bet is better than a jam for those 1/221 times when V has AA and the 13 percent when an A comes. Although I dont think I'm folding easily on a flop with an A ...

 

[heisman]

4bet but villain jam call is not good at all but sucked out and got paid off. Too bad for your friend. All assuming there’s no history

 

[boltonguy]

No reads or history as it's anonymous zone fast fold 6-max

 

[boltonguy]

Agreed I would not be calling that jam from UTG/LJ on BN with AQo

 

[Beakertwang]

Cash game? What stakes?

 

[boltonguy]

$0.10/$0.25 NL

 

[BukNaked36]

I think 4 bet is the more standard play - and call a shove with no read.

 

[Legend5555]

You don't even have to 4bet to 3x the 3 bet. A 4 bet defines such narrow ranges that you making it that large isn't necessary. Plus it protects you the times you want (and should be) 4 bet bluffing with stuff like AXs or KQs.

 

[Sambukan]

Yeah i would 4bet to 22.5bb

 

[JustinInMN]

Yeah. I prefer the four bet to the jam, but the jam worked out pretty well if hero got called by AQ. Bad run-out, but that's poker.

I am not saying the four bet to fold to the shove, you have to call a shove here. I prefer the four bet to keep weaker hands in.

 

[boltonguy]

You don't even have to 4bet to 3x the 3 bet. A 4 bet defines such narrow ranges that you making it that large isn't necessary. Plus it protects you the times you want (and should be) 4 bet bluffing with stuff like AXs or KQs.

yeah I’ve seen times when Snowie 4bets 2x with weaker hands. But with stronger hands Snowie defaults to pot sized 4 bet which seems to be right around 3x

 

[Frogzilla]

13x seems too big for the 4! jam, probably making it closer to just under 3X so 25ish. And not loving life but probably calling off jam if button goes with it here. Maybe roll a dice if it’s nearby and fold on 1 or 2

 

[Frogzilla]

Also just FYI your math in OP is off, KK is like 70-72% against AQ (not 87%) and AA is probably closer to 4-8% (not 0.5%) of an anonymous button 3! Vs LJ range, will depend on general population aggression

 

[boltonguy]

Yes you are right on the math, thx. Sorry left an old flop in pokercruncher

 

[CrazyEddie]

I'm asking for a friend who just jammed his KK for 120BB and had them cracked by AQo. A came on the flop.

Pokercruncher says we're 87/13 to win here so this is just a bad beat

Yes.

- but it makes me think that maybe a 4 bet is better than a jam

Maybe. What's best is whatever is going to get the greatest amount of money in the pot as possible. Your friend jammed and Villain called, so jamming worked. Maybe it wouldn't have worked some other time or under some other circumstances, and maybe in those circumstances 4-betting would have been the right way to get the most money in the pot.

for those 1/221 times when V has AA

No. KK has huge equity over every other hand Villain could have had, that it by far offsets the losing equity against AA, and that's true pretty much no matter what range Villain was likely to have had given his betting so far.

and the 13 percent when an A comes

Absolutely not. With KK you should be trying to get as much money in the pot as you can preflop, preferably all of it, but at least enough that any implied odds he has for drawing to paired aces don't matter. If you're that far ahead preflop, try to leave as little money behind as possible that Villain could use to outplay you postflop. If the money is all-in preflop, then nothing that happens postflop matters; you've already made the right decision and have won, even if when the cards come you lose. Results Don't Matter. Results give you bad beat stories, and bad beats mean you're a winning player.

 

[joeyshin]

4bet seems safer online as some/most players with call with even Arag at those stakes. Kk jams flop with no A

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Fast-fold poker like Zone tends toward the nitty side. Normally I would say hefty 4-bet and call a shove, and that's probably the same line I'd take here, but I'm expecting the shove to have AA a good percentage of the time.

 

[tabletalker7]

If your friend is worried about an A on the flop, why not just call instead of repopping this again?

 

[Legend5555]

If your friend is worried about an A on the flop, why not just call instead of repopping this again?

This makes no sense. You want to just call pre so you can try to not lose money to something like AQ or AK when an A comes on the flop? That's the exact opposite of of what you want to do if your opponent has AQ or AK.

 

[daner993]

I think that mixing up a 4-bet with a jam at those stakes is a good way to play it out.. Could very much induce calls from QQ, JJ or worse since the opponent might believe that AK is a large part of your range. At deeper stacks, better reads of opponent and higher stakes it's probably better to 4-bet rather than jam it.

 

[BigJ]

In general you should 4 bet and not jam there, unless you have people who call off 120BB with AQ. Since the absolute value of 120BB at these blinds is just like 30$ i think you will get called much more often than you should. Well played, just unlucky.

 

[upNdown]

What stakes?

IRRELEVENT! Good poker is good poker at any stakes.
And not that I play good poker, but the only reason I’d jam is if I were hoping for a fold. And I’m too much of a greedy piggy to want a fold here, in a cash game, with KK and 100+ big blinds behind.

 

[dhowitzer]

Definitely feel like strong 4-bet highest EV, and wouldn't shove that often, as shoves will more often get AQo to fold, and keeping those in more often is profitable long run.

 

[tabletalker7]

I’m too much of a greedy piggy

 

[LaBestiole]

Standard is 4bet. Your friend did a nice exploit by shoving and getting called by crap AQ.
Rest of the story is just a bad beat.

 

[boltonguy]

Here's another great hand with KK, jamming flop multi-way. The smile on my face when they showed and I realized how few outs they had

Ignition Hand #4042397944 Zone Poker ID#1676 HOLDEMZonePoker No Limit [MVS] - 2020-12-12 20:29:50 UTC
Table Info: Version: 1, Type: MVS, Stakes: $0.10-$0.25, Table: 00100C9E-0
Seat 1: Dealer ($9.94 in chips)
Seat 2: Small Blind [ME] ($40.74 in chips)
Seat 3: Big Blind ($46.62 in chips)
Seat 4: UTG ($21.55 in chips)
Seat 5: UTG+1 ($77.03 in chips)
Seat 6: UTG+2 ($129.67 in chips)

Small Blind [ME] : Small Blind $0.10
Big Blind : Big Blind $0.25
Small Blind [ME] : Card dealt to a spot [Ks Kh]

UTG : Raises $1 to $1
UTG+1 : Calls $1
UTG+2 : Folds
Dealer : Calls $1
Small Blind [ME] : Raises $5.90 to $6
Big Blind : Folds
UTG : Calls $5
UTG+1 : Calls $5
Dealer : Calls $5

*** FLOP *** [9h 4d 8c]
Small Blind [ME] : All-in $34.74
UTG : All-in $15.55
UTG+1 : Folds
Dealer : All-in $3.94
Small Blind [ME] : Return uncalled portion of bet $19.19

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealer : Card dealt to a spot [Ts Td]
UTG : Card dealt to a spot [Tc Th]

*** TURN *** [9h 4d 8c] [2h]

*** RIVER *** [9h 4d 8c 2h] [9d]

Dealer : Showdown [Ts Td 9h 9d 8c]
Small Blind [ME] : Showdown [Ks Kh 9h 9d 8c]
UTG : Showdown [Th Tc 9h 9d 8c]

 

[ando5k]

Need more info. I need to know what V stack size is. With a monster premium like KK, we want all the chips possible hitting the pot as soon as possible, but we also want V to commit as many chips as possible without losing him from the hand. Assuming V has >+50 bb, then a 18-25 bb 4 bet is likely, mainly because even if he 5 bets all in, we are never folding KK preflop and we have achieved our goal of most chips as quick as possible. If V has <50 bb, jamming is the right play because if he is going to call 20 bb with his holdings, he will call an all-in for size of the pot compared to his stack.

Now, post flop is a completely different ball game because we have to play his range at that point and unless an A flops, we aren't folding post flop, even if he shoves. Pot becomes too big to fold and you have his range crushed unless he pinged a set, in which case you lost to the variance train and not his good play.

 

[Coyote]

I went all-in today Pre-Flop (4-bet) with KK, against a serious TAG (VPIP 16/ PFR 14/ AF 3) villain who 3-bet me brutally (4X).
He had AA, and they held.
Flop was as dry as the Sahara, so I don't think I could have gotten away from this anyway, unless I gave more respect to the stats above and folded pre-.

 

[boltonguy]

This stinks but it was the right move IMHO generally speaking.
Vpip/pfr is tight for sure but that doesn't always equal getting 3 bet with AA.
Do you have his 3bet % in the hud stats?

 

[Coyote]

I don't know how to do that (keep villain's stats after the game is over) which makes quite clear why I shouldn't be playing online, even at 5/10c