Is this a terrible flop decision (1 Viewer)

[Perthmike]

So I’ve been sucking at poker recently and have had some real run bad and unfortunately mixed in plenty of play bad at the same time.

To get out of this whole id like to start analysing more of my plays to identify errors.


Hand from Wednesday. I’m going to tell the whole story in one go because it ended quickly anyway and I just want to discuss the merits of the different flop options.

$1/3 and I’ve got about $400 to start the hand. Both villains in the hand cover me. I don’t know much about them.

I called a mp open to $12 with in the cutoff. I’ve recently reduced my 3-betting frequency a bit because no one folds and I’ve been getting hammered. 4 to the flop.

Flop came out . Ep donks for $15 and the original raiser flats. I decided to make it $65. Everyone folded.

In my mind i re-raised partially for value, partially for protection, but also because I have some backdoor possibilities to improve quite nicely as well. Am I just forcing out all worse hands and only getting called by better?

My Assumption was that the donk connected fairly weakly on the flop. The original raiser i expect to have maybe some pocket pairs, but mostly a lot of overcards.

I figure if I ever have sets that I want to re-raise, this is the type of hand that’s a good one to mix in as well.

Was the raise a bad idea in the long-run? I guess I’m partially blocking some potential straight draws, which probably makes the re-raise a bad idea?

Appreciate any thoughts on what is an optimal play on such a board.

 

[DrStrange]

I wonder if the risk was worth the reward? I lean towards yes - $15 into a $48 pot seems weak. The caller/original raiser seems weaker - expect him to raise with an over-pair. Risking $65 to win $78. I see this as raise > fold > call.

The problem I foresee is what does hero do if called? Hero has a chunk of runner-runner type cards, but there aren't so many bricks ether. This is the sort of thing to consider prior to the raise. Having position will prove handy. I think a second barrel looks fine if checked to. If the villain donk bets . . . .well that is a pain in the ass. I would have to see the board, but a fold might be best.

 

[Saoliver]

So I’ve been sucking at poker recently and have had some real run bad and unfortunately mixed in plenty of play bad at the same time.

To get out of this whole id like to start analysing more of my plays to identify errors.


Hand from Wednesday. I’m going to tell the whole story in one go because it ended quickly anyway and I just want to discuss the merits of the different flop options.

$1/3 and I’ve got about $400 to start the hand. Both villains in the hand cover me. I don’t know much about them.

I called a mp open to $12 with in the cutoff. I’ve recently reduced my 3-betting frequency a bit because no one folds and I’ve been getting hammered. 4 to the flop.

Flop came out . Ep donks for $15 and the original raiser flats. I decided to make it $65. Everyone folded.

In my mind i re-raised partially for value, partially for protection, but also because I have some backdoor possibilities to improve quite nicely as well. Am I just forcing out all worse hands and only getting called by better?

My Assumption was that the donk connected fairly weakly on the flop. The original raiser i expect to have maybe some pocket pairs, but mostly a lot of overcards.

I figure if I ever have sets that I want to re-raise, this is the type of hand that’s a good one to mix in as well.

Was the raise a bad idea in the long-run? I guess I’m partially blocking some potential straight draws, which probably makes the re-raise a bad idea?

Appreciate any thoughts on what is an optimal play on such a board.

I think it’s a good play to mix this in when in position. It may get you some free rivers. I believe that it is never a bad thing when everyone folds to my raise. A win is a win, even small ones.

 

[Saoliver]

I think it’s a good play to mix this in when in position. It may get you some free rivers. I believe that it is never a bad thing when everyone folds to my raise. A win is a win, even small ones.

Also, with 89 suited, you can’t ask for a much better flop and with position. You’re play was fine, but you already know that it won’t always work and if you get any pressure, you can shut it down.

 

[Josh Kifer]

It's what I would have done... Maybe not 65, I'd be more in the 50 range. But I want the hand over.

 

[Perthmike]

Also, with 89 suited, you can’t ask for a much better flop and with position. You’re play was fine, but you already know that it won’t always work and if you get any pressure, you can shut it down.

That was my thinking, I can feel confident unless someone starts really playing back at me.

I just wonder was I overplaying my hand.

At the time, my reasoning was mostly i’m Likely ahead, I have some solid backdoor equity and there are a lot of high turn cards that could confuse the situation if I don’t raise now.

 

[Saoliver]

That was my thinking, I can feel confident unless someone starts really playing back at me.

I just wonder was I overplaying my hand.

At the time, my reasoning was mostly i’m Likely ahead, I have some solid backdoor equity and there are a lot of high turn cards that could confuse the situation if I don’t raise now.

Raising for information can be a good play too. My guess is he had a small pair or any Ace and just made a continuation bet. Was he playing aggressively before this?

 

[Perthmike]

Raising for information can be a good play too. My guess is he had a small pair or any Ace and just made a continuation bet. Was he playing aggressively before this?

It wasn’t the pre-flop raiser that bet the flop. Limp caller donked and the pre-flop aggressor called.

 

[Frogzilla]

This feels like a tough spot here. Arguments for raising are that his cbet range has a ton of overcards that have decent equity against you. Lots of turns suck. Raising denies that equity which is what happened here. Probably can get some value from 8s.

Where it starts to get tricky...what’s our plan if villain 3-bets. Folding top pair with so much going on. Or if he calls. This is the road to tough turn/river decisions in a huge pot with marginal holdings. Keeping the pot small has merit

I lean call but don’t hate the raise.

 

[sergiophil]

You’re raise I feel was good, although did you have a plan if you would’ve been called? Now, the ranges for the pre flop aggressor from mp have to be relatively strong you’d think, so he probably called the Donk bet to see a turn card. Now, the limper probably hit the board but relatively weak. I probably wouldn’t have raised $65, but more along the lines of $40-$50.

 

[kmccormick100]

I like the raise size, but don't like that the pf raiser called. I think even a lot of passive players will just flat with overpairs here not knowing what to do against donk bets, I'd say villain (pfraiser) dependent may have a decent amount of TT JJ maybe QQ here. There aren't many draws on this board except T8 and 68 which you block some of. I think I'm more prone to raising just a single donk bettor and and maybe flatting in position when the PFR calls.

 

[mipevi]

I called a mp open to $12 with in the cutoff. I’ve recently reduced my 3-betting frequency a bit because no one folds and I’ve been getting hammered. 4 to the flop.

This is a good hand to call and not 3bet with anyway. You have good equity vs. premium hands with position, and your hand prefers a higher SPR on the flop. If you want to 3bet bluff suited connectors, gappers are better for it (if 4bet, you won’t lose quite as much equity by folding). Although based on your description, sticking to mostly value 3bets seems like a good course of action.

On the flop you basically turned TPNK into a bluff. Seeing that you also have a good number of backdoor outs with position, I much prefer a call in order to see that turn card. Yes you will get sucked out on at times, but the goal isn’t to win the most pots. You will have plenty of worse hands (that don’t block draws) you could bluff vs. weakness with.

 

[v1pe]

I think in a spot like this I prefer to call given we have good showdown value, we are in position, and we decent backdoor equity. We keep the donk lead range wide and allow him to continue to bluff. I'd also be calling with over pairs.

I would prefer to iso raise here with very strong hands like sets or combo draws like maybe 8Ts with backdoor flush draws. With my middling value range I prefer to just use my showdown value to keep bluffing ranges wide.

I think it's okay to mix it up and turn TPNK into a bluff here sometimes, but it wouldn't be my standard play.

 

[Gobbs]

I have no problem with your bet and taking down the pot right there. The turn was only going to bring misery and the river was only going to bring heartbreak.

 

[ando5k]

If there are 4 to the flop and EP bets and has a caller, a raise isn't a terrible play there, but know that there will be times with 4 to the flop that you are behind on this flop to 10-9, J-9 which have blockers to your hand improvement. Say for example you raise to the 65 and 10-9 decides to call. Turn is said 10. You have an up and down and middle pair and think you are great, but really you just became a 80-20 dog and the pot is hugely bloated. Pot control is essential in hands like this and blowing it up with what essentially becomes middle pair on 40% of turns is not an ideal situation.

 

[JustinInMN]

This is weird.

I would almost assume a donk bet is at least a 9. The fact the donk actually has a folding range here is a sign the raise is right. He is betting substandard hands.

I think with 98 in particular, with no kicker, I would favor the raise for protection in a 4 way pot. None of the overcards help and anyone that stays in the pot is probably holding an overcard+pair or two overs.

If you had A9 or K9 instead then at least you are blocking some overcards and may benefit from reverse domination, so I would prefer calling with those hands if you want to have some "calling nines."

Also 4 ways for a raise is not a great spot for 98s pre. When you are running bad, this is one I could see dumping pre if you are trying to lower variance.

But I think you made the best play on the flop. This was a pretty good result. Isolating the donk and catching a safe turn would have been good as well. You netted about 17BB without a showdown. That's pretty good.

 

[Taghkanic]

I think it’s a fine play, especially if you balance that action by playing most of your stronger and some of your weaker hands the same way.

Taking the pot down there I think is a great outcome: You made 33 big blinds profit. If this raise gets through anything more than half the time, it’s a winner.

If you get called, you slow down and re-evaluate based on the next streets and your specific opponents. There are a lot of cards which improve your equity (most 6s or 10s, the remaining two 9s, most of the 8s, any heart most of the time unless someone has a higher backdoor flush draw). If an overcard comes, you’re in position, so you won’t feel pressure to rep a bigger hand by donking ahead of the villain.

If villain 3-bets you on the flop, you can float some of the time, if you have a read that the person would do so with straight draws, underpairs, or even two overcards that don’t make likely straights... If you think the 3-better is someone who never does that without a hand that has you crushed, you get away from it.

 

[HeresyReznor]

Play was good, wrong intent. You're only folding worse and getting called by better. Now if you had a read, guys are LAG and continuation bet alot etc that is completely different. Your plan lead to the right result but for the wrong reasons.