Is this a string bet? (1 Viewer)

[upNdown]

I don't like it. I think it's lazy and annoying. And nobody around here bets like that. But absent house specific rules, I'd say it's not a string bet. I've seen it enough on broadcast or streamed poker and I've read enough here to know that that's how some people bet.
And fwiw, unless they changed the rule in the last few years, I think at the WSOP the rule is when chips hit the felt.

 

[Klobberer]

I'm a big fan of house rules, if host doesn't think it's an angle play then relax. If he does, put the foot down and don't allow it the next time. Players are guests and need to abide...

 

[Josh Kifer]

We have people who do this at our game, we kinda fixed it by asking people to call there actions. If someone says raise and does this, then we wait for the bet and move from there. It kinda takes the wind out of the sales of trying to get an reaction. We know the action....

 

[Mr Winberg]

Regarding cutting out chips over the betting line and taking the remainder back, I recall seeing this a lot in the early seasons of WPT. I haven't watched past season 3 or 4, so I don't know if it stopped.

Has the attitude towards this changed over the years? Was this accepted back in 2004 but not now? I've never played outside Sweden (except London), so if anyone can fill in the gaps for me... that'd be great!

 

[DoubleEagle]

So you saying "house rules"? Sure... Try to do that on WSOP or WPT...

The WSOP does not have betting lines on their tables. A bet is not considered made until the chips have been released from the players hand.

Most places I play do not use betting lines, and the ones that have them on their tables do not enforce a betting line rule. In my experience, it seems the use of betting lines is on the decrease.

If you think the player is angle shooting then politely ask him to stop.

 

[BGinGA]

A player I occasionally play with at a home game MTT will frequently bet by separating out a pile of chips into their fist, put their fist over the betting surface, wait a moment, and then drop either a single chip to call, or some or all of the chips to raise.

Unfortunately, dealing with "forward motion" and "betting line" are two areas where most existing rule sets are really lacking. Commonly used rules:
RROP
"A wager is not binding until the chips are actually released into the pot, unless the player has made a verbal statement of action. "

TDA
39: Methods of Calling
...acceptable forms of calling include: ... pushing out chips equal to a call
40: Methods of Raising
In no-limit or pot-limit, a raise must be made by (A) placing the full amount in the pot in one motion

So in essence, neither set of rules directly addresses your scenario of moving chips forward and pulling some back. Personally, I have no problem with it so long as the player's intended action has been verbalized (which pretty much solves everything, aka @Josh Kifer's solution above).

However, I do think unaddressed forward motion is problematic (see below), and as a result, our house tournament rules specify that forward motion of chips beyond the betting line are considered to be the player's wager.


One way to fully appreciate the potential issues resulting from this maneuver (and why it shouldn't be allowed) is to look at all of the possible action variations when doing this:

Player is facing a $20 bet, picks up a barrel of $5 chips in his hand (worth $100), says nothing, and extends it forward toward the pot, and then:

1. drops off 4 chips from the bottom of the barrel (call?)
2. drops off 8 (or more) chips simultaneously from the barrel (min-raise?)
3. drops off several chips at a time until it hits 8 chips total (call? raise? likely to be ruled as a string-bet call only)
4. pulls the entire barrel back, saying nothing (call? raise? angle-shooter asking for an ass-kicking?)

Imo, if you're clearly moving chips forward over the betting line (real or imagined) towards the pot, then that's your wager, provided it's a legal amount. Absolutely no reason to do it in ANY of the fashions above, and allowing it is just asking for trouble..... it's just bad etiquette, and opens up the possibility for angle-shooting. Makes no difference whether it's casual/serious, or cash/tournament, either. Cutting out chips to call or raise is different..... and typically does NOT include the "forward motion towards the pot" component.

Only time it's remotely acceptable behavior is when it's combined with specific verbal intent ("call", "raise to xx"). And a simple non-specific "raise" announcement would require ALL of the chips to be wagered, imo.

To say nothing if any of those actions above cause another player to prematurely fold or otherwise act because of the ambiguity of the action. Just another reason to not allow it.

As always, YMMV.

 

[surfik]

Look at Losev case..

 

[Josh Kifer]

Unfortunately, dealing with "forward motion" and "betting line" are two areas where most existing rule sets are really lacking. Commonly used rules:
RROP
"A wager is not binding until the chips are actually released into the pot, unless the player has made a verbal statement of action. "

TDA
39: Methods of Calling
...acceptable forms of calling include: ... pushing out chips equal to a call
40: Methods of Raising
In no-limit or pot-limit, a raise must be made by (A) placing the full amount in the pot in one motion

So in essence, neither set of rules directly addresses your scenario of moving chips forward and pulling some back. Personally, I have no problem with it so long as the player's intended action has been verbalized (which pretty much solves everything, aka @Josh Kifer's solution above).

However, I do think unaddressed forward motion is problematic (see below), and as a result, our house tournament rules specify that forward motion of chips beyond the betting line are considered to be the player's wager.


One way to fully appreciate the potential issues resulting from this maneuver (and why it shouldn't be allowed) is to look at all of the possible action variations when doing this:

Player is facing a $20 bet, picks up a barrel of $5 chips in his hand (worth $100), says nothing, and extends it forward toward the pot, and then:

1. drops off 4 chips from the bottom of the barrel (call?)
2. drops off 8 (or more) chips simultaneously from the barrel (min-raise?)
3. drops off several chips at a time until it hits 8 chips total (call? raise? likely to be ruled as a string-bet call only)
4. pulls the entire barrel back, saying nothing (call? raise? angle-shooter asking for an ass-kicking?)

Imo, if you're clearly moving chips forward over the betting line (real or imagined) towards the pot, then that's your wager, provided it's a legal amount. Absolutely no reason to do it in ANY of the fashions above, and allowing it is just asking for trouble..... it's just bad etiquette, and opens up the possibility for angle-shooting. Makes no difference whether it's casual/serious, or cash/tournament, either. Cutting out chips to call or raise is different..... and typically does NOT include the "forward motion towards the pot" component.

Only time it's remotely acceptable behavior is when it's combined with specific verbal intent ("call", "raise to xx"). And a simple non-specific "raise" announcement would require ALL of the chips to be wagered, imo.

To say nothing if any of those actions above cause another player to prematurely fold or otherwise act because of the ambiguity of the action. Just another reason to not allow it.

As always, YMMV.

Omg. Guys, he agreed with me. ***passes out***

 

[legend672]

Yeah, but as a Canadian, I'm expected to be polite

I thought as a Canadian, you were only required to act dopey and have new dewt a boot it. Times are changing everywhere.

 

[LotsOfChips]

I thought as a Canadian, you were only required to act dopey and have new dewt a boot it. Times are changing everywhere.

No, as a west coaster, I think the requirement is to SMOKE dope, not act like one (not that I ever have, in case any US Border Agents are viewing this thread).

And the only people I've ever heard talk like that are Americans who think that they sound like Canadians when they do it (and possibly a few east coasters).

 

[Poker Zombie]

When a player makes an ambiguous bet, I get input from the players. If even one player in the hand said "I thought he was betting the whole stack", I would rule the whole stack was bet. It is the responsibility of the player to make their intentions CLEAR. If you are failing to do that, I will rule against you.

We had one player that used to bet that way. He doesn't anymore.

 

[timinater]

My philosophy on enforcing string bets is like a drug dealer:

First one is free, next one will cost you.

 

[legend672]

No, as a west coaster, I think the requirement is to SMOKE dope, not act like one (not that I ever have, in case any US Border Agents are viewing this thread).

And the only people I've ever heard talk like that are Americans who think that they sound like Canadians when they do it (and possibly a few east coasters).

Lighten up Pepe . Maybe a little of the BC breeze, if you’re old enough to remember it

 

[abby99]

The betting line goes from the table to the ceiling, if he's extending his arm over the line with a pile of chips in his hand, ALL OF THOSE CHIPS are the bet/raise. This rule is to prevent people from doing exactly this which holds up the game and eliminates this particular angle.

So the betting line is actually a vertical plane, just like the goal line in American football.

Cutting out chips in the betting area (end zone, lol) is not uncommon in limit poker. I understand that it's considered an angle shoot in big-bet poker, which is obvious if the bettor is watching his opponent at the same time.

 

[heisman]

I despise string betters as much as anyone else, but if I've got a chip somewhere at the bottom of my stack, I'll do this with the entire barrel in my hand and call with a single (or multiple) chip over the betting line, but I'll verbally call out my action first. Verbal intent takes precedence and avoids confusion like this.

 

[MrCatPants]

To me it's a (usually unintentional) angle. If this is ok, what else is ok? The below? They're in the exact same family to me, just more nefarious applications of the same "allowable" concept.

- Someone picks up a barrel of chips and moves them toward the pot (even with a general statement like raise) could induce a fold (yes, it would be that player's fault) with a player thinking they are facing a larger bet then they actually are. How would this be different than someone saying raise, grabbing their highest denomination chip, but not letting it quite touch the felt. "It didn't touch, it didn't touch!" if they get called when they didn't want to.

- Let's say I'm dripping chips slowly off my barrel? Can I pause indefinitely without stating a further action? Stare the person down when I drip off a call to try for a live read, and then keep dripping chips if I think it's a good idea?

 

[Kain8]

So the betting line is actually a vertical plane, just like the goal line in American football

To me it's a (usually unintentional) angle. If this is ok, what else is ok? The below? They're in the exact same family to me, just more nefarious applications of the same "allowable" concept.

- Someone picks up a barrel of chips and moves them toward the pot (even with a general statement like raise) could induce a fold (yes, it would be that player's fault) with a player thinking they are facing a larger bet then they actually are. How would this be different than someone saying raise, grabbing their highest denomination chip, but not letting it quite touch the felt. "It didn't touch, it didn't touch!" if they get called when they didn't want to.

- Let's say I'm dripping chips slowly off my barrel? Can I pause indefinitely without stating a further action? Stare the person down when I drip off a call to try for a live read, and then keep dripping chips if I think it's a good idea?

And this is why the rule stomps out these possibilities from even coming up. If those chips cross the betting "force field" (might start using that from now!) they're in the pot.

I think this type of play and a lot of other unenviable scenarios that come up is that players REFUSE to actually verbalize their actions before they do anything with their chips. They could be new, or they could be "afraid" that my tone of voice being a certain octave betrays the strength of my hand so I better keep quiet because every opponent is a combination of Phil Hellmuth and an audiophile that works for Bose.

Just announcing your action gives you a bit more freedom in how you want to put your chips in, regardless of your own idiosyncrasies.

 

[allforcharity]

Why can't people just verbalize their action? Doesn't seem cool enough? Silence is golden?

 

[LotsOfChips]

Lighten up Pepe . Maybe a little of the BC breeze, if you’re old enough to remember it

Actually my post was supposed to be lighthearted - in jest . Sorry if you took it otherwise (see, there's my Canadianism coming out again). But it is true, I've had several 'Maricans talk to me saying "a-boot" and "dewt" in place of "about" and "doubt", thinking that is the way Canadians talk. Can't recall ever hearing a Canadian talk that way, with the exception of a few Maritimers (Newfoundlanders or Nova Scotians), but that is almost another planet (great people, immensely friendly, but they do speak a bit differently than the rest of the country)

And yes, I'm definitely old enough to remember even the early sixties, although I'm also old enough to start forgetting a lot of the things that I used to remember (where the hell are my keys?). Can't say I've heard of BC Breeze in any context other than a light wind coming in from the coast, but I was a flat-lander for the first twenty five or so years, so maybe I missed that particular phrase.

Anyway, laugh! That was how I took your post, and how I meant mine!

 

[LotsOfChips]

So @surfik's reference to Losev got me searching the forum, and I found a thread from about two years ago that asks almost the exact same question (and has a lot of the exact same responses):

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/would-you-allow-this-kind-of-bet.31199/

It even has a poll, in which the (slim) majority says that dropping from the bottom of a stack in your hand is acceptable, even without verbalizing.

So I guess that I'll just keep my mouth shut about this at the MTT in question, but when I host my own games, it will be a "forward motion across betting line is a bet" house rule.

 

[surfik]

So @surfik's reference to Losev got me searching the forum, and I found a thread from about two years ago that asks almost the exact same question (and has a lot of the exact same responses):

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/would-you-allow-this-kind-of-bet.31199/

It even has a poll, in which the (slim) majority says that dropping from the bottom of a stack in your hand is acceptable, even without verbalizing.

So I guess that I'll just keep my mouth shut about this at the MTT in question, but when I host my own games, it will be a "forward motion across betting line is a bet" house rule.

I quoted Losev case cause I had problem with this kind of behavior at let say daily bases. Also cut betting. I made house rule that its prohibited. We had a problem with guest players but we enforced that pretty ruthlessly. We also had some rules not common to most cash games like showdown at all in situations. It all comes down to house rules.

 

[justsomedude]

I actually just saw this ruled - well, something similar - very recently:

The last time I played at a casino (cruise ship casino actually) in December, the player to my right would repeatedly bet by lifting an entire stack of $5s in one hand, moving his hand (with chips) forward, and then dropping/releasing the number of chips from the bottom of the stack that was his actual bet, onto the table. For example, for a $20 bet he would drop 4 chips, and then pull the remaining stack back and line it up with the rest of his chips against the rail.

After 15-20 minutes of this nonsense, the dealer reprimanded him pretty harshly. Said something like, "Sir, I've been watching you for a while now... what you are doing is a string bet, do it again and I'll consider whatever is in your hand as your bet. Please count out your exact bet before moving any chips forward." FWIW the table had no bet line.

The guy did not object, apologized profusely, and bet properly the rest of the evening. And in fairness, no other players objected before the dealer said something. So, no harm no foul.

FWIW, if this happened in my home game I don't think I'd get too pissy about it, but I'd definitely inform the player that his betting style could be viewed as incorrect by other players, and I would ask that he correct it.

 

[BGinGA]

So the betting line is actually a vertical plane, just like the goal line in American football.

Cutting out chips in the betting area (end zone, lol) is not uncommon in limit poker. I understand that it's considered an angle shoot in big-bet poker, which is obvious if the bettor is watching his opponent at the same time.

Thank you, Marsha! I will now and forevermore refer to the playing area inside the betting line as the 'end zone'. Perfect word-play,

 

[Mojo1312]

A player I occasionally play with at a home game MTT will frequently bet by separating out a pile of chips into their fist, put their fist over the betting surface, wait a moment, and then drop either a single chip to call, or some or all of the chips to raise.

^^ As described, the above is a string bet according to Penn National's dealer's manual. (Unless the player declared his action beforehand.)