Tourney Included rebuy or add-on? (1 Viewer)

Gameface

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EDIT: To avoid confusion, several people helped me to find a better option than I originally proposed. Right now the plan is to do either a $40 or $50 buy-in with included $10 bounty chip and allow rebuys for that same amount for a full stack and another bounty chip until the first break when the rebuy period ends. No add-on.
--END EDIT--


I'm planning on hosting a $60 buy-in 20 player tournament.

Starting stacks
T10,000

12 x 25
17 x 100
4 x 500
6 x 1000


If you bust before the first break you get an auto-rebuy for another 10k. Can't rebuy again.

If you don't use your rebuy you get a 10k add-on at the first break, end of rebuy period.

If you used your rebuy you can buy an add-on for? I'm thinking $20. Partially because people have $20s.

Does this pass the sanity check for you?
 
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I would have used $30 for a 10k rebuy.....

Basically you gave folks 10k plus 10k = 20k for the original $60 buy in
 
I would have used $30 for a 10k rebuy.....

Basically you gave folks 10k plus 10k = 20k for the original $60 buy in

I was thinking that, I just sort of don't want to have to mess with the change, and in a way the value of 10k has depreciated some, since there will be rebuys and now add-ons so that the average stack will be greater than 10k before the add-on.

But yeah, that's one of the main issues I'm wondering about. Thanks for the feedback!
 
....If you don't use your rebuy you get a 10k add-on at the first break, end of rebuy period.
If you used your rebuy you can buy an add-on for? I'm thinking $20. Partially because people have $20s.
Does this pass the sanity check for you?

Not for me, because someone who rebuys then adds-on, without even playing a hand, can start play after the break with more chips than somone who didn’t bust. For me, that’s an absolute no-no.

IMO, no add-on for anyone who rebuys. That’s why you only give out one rebuy/add-on chip. Either/or, not both.
 
Not for me, because someone who rebuys then adds-on, without even playing a hand, can start play after the break with more chips than somone who didn’t bust. For me, that’s an absolute no-no.

IMO, no add-on for anyone who rebuys. That’s why you only give out one rebuy/add-on chip. Either/or, not both.

A person who rebuys and then adds-on without playing a hand will have 20k in chips. So a person who has lost a few hands but hasn't busted might have 4k-8k lets say and they will start after the add-on with 14k-18k. But there will be others with 20k plus before the add-on. If a person has to rebuy they are going to be very short after the break unless they have doubled-up. If I allow them to add more money to the prize pool and have a relatively even stack I don't see why that would be objectionable.

Maybe the add-on is a little bigger for people that didn't rebuy, like 15k if you didn't rebuy and 10k if you did?
 
A person who rebuys and then adds-on without playing a hand will have 20k in chips. So a person who has lost a few hands but hasn't busted might have 4k-8k lets say and they will start after the add-on with 14k-18k. But there will be others with 20k plus before the add-on. If a person has to rebuy they are going to be very short after the break unless they have doubled-up. If I allow them to add more money to the prize pool and have a relatively even stack I don't see why that would be objectionable.

Maybe the add-on is a little bigger for people that didn't rebuy, like 15k if you didn't rebuy and 10k if you did?

Then the only thing your rebuys accomplish is to make everyone’s effective stacks bigger after the break.

The other factor to consider with your original plan is that it affects play right before the break, making it a shove-fest for anyone with a small stack.

Honestly, I’d never even consider playing a tourney where someone who busted could rebuy and add-on to a larger stack than someone who hasn’t busted and adds-on. Ymmv...
 
Then the only thing your rebuys accomplish is to make everyone’s effective stacks bigger after the break.

The other factor to consider with your original plan is that it affects play right before the break, making it a shove-fest for anyone with a small stack.

Honestly, I’d never even consider playing a tourney where someone who busted could rebuy and add-on to a larger stack than someone who hasn’t busted and adds-on. Ymmv...

It doesn't affect your opinion that they are also adding more money to the pot? And what about the 15k for people who didn't rebuy vs 10k for those who did? That should even out the stacks even if the person is down a little.

And I see the problem with shoving to get the rebuy... But would think that the difference in rebuy size should help, and at this point I'd say the add-on would cost $30, which could affect someone's decision. Maybe also allow anyone at or below 5k at the break to rebuy and add-on?

Do you not see how much anyone who rebuys will be at a disadvantage if they can't add-on? They will have 10k on a table with an average stack of 20k but the average stack of people who didn't rebuy is probably going to be closer to 30k, depending on how many people rebuy.

I hope I'm not sounding like I'm not taking your feedback. I appreciate your opinion.
 
If you bust before the first break you get an auto-rebuy for another 10k. Can't rebuy again.
If you're not charging for that auto-stack replacement, it's not a really a re-buy. You are essentially starting players with a half-stack, and they can add-on the other half-stack if they bust out, or at first break if they don't.

Nothing wrong with that approach, but it's not a re-buy. We do it in our league games -- players are issued T10000 starting chips and a T10K "Pre-buy" plaque that does not play, but can be exchanged for T10000 chips anytime between hands, including before the event starts (and is auto-converted to chips at second break).

We also offer actual re-buys, for players who have totally busted out (having lost both their initial half-stack and their pre-buy half-stack). The cost for a re-buy is the same as the initial buy-in, and for the same amount of chips. For players who do not use their re-buy chip, it can be exchanged at second break for small add-on (free) -- this gives the re-buy chip some intrinsic value; as it is still worth something if not used. This approach lessens the last-minute shove-fest tactics, as players must decide whether going all-in with a short stack is worth giving up the free add-on.

We also offer an optional add-on for purchase at second break. It is typically a 1/2-stack for half-price, and is available to any player who still has chips.


Logic would dictate that any add-on that is optional and costs money should be available to any player who still has chips. Anything else is unfair.
 
If you're not charging for that auto-stack replacement, it's not a really a re-buy. You are essentially starting players with a half-stack, and they can add-on the other half-stack if they bust out, or at first break if they don't.

Nothing wrong with that approach, but it's not a re-buy. We do it in our league games -- players are issued T10000 starting chips and a T10K "Pre-buy" plaque that does not play, but can be exchanged for T10000 chips anytime between hands, including before the event starts (and is auto-converted to chips at second break).

We also offer actual re-buys, for players who have totally busted out (having lost both their initial half-stack and their pre-buy half-stack). The cost for a re-buy is the same as the initial buy-in, and for the same amount of chips. For players who do not use their re-buy chip, it can be exchanged at second break for small add-on (free) -- this gives the re-buy chip some intrinsic value; as it is still worth something if not used. This approach lessens the last-minute shove-fest tactics, as players must decide whether going all-in with a short stack is worth giving up the free add-on.

We also offer an optional add-on for purchase at second break. It is typically a 1/2-stack for half-price, and is available to any player who still has chips.


Logic would dictate that any add-on that is optional and costs money should be available to any player who still has chips. Anything else is unfair.

Okay...

So make the "pre-buy" work the way yours does, give a bonus to anyone holds onto their pre-buy until the break where they get their pre-buy chips auto-added, and make add-ons available to everyone for $30?

Not exactly how you're doing it but a little closer.

@pltrgyst would that address your concerns regarding a busted player having an advantage over a player who has lost a few hands/blinds but didn't bust?
 
Now I've generally been a freeze-out guy. But the people I'm playing with at someone else's house seem to dig rebuys, it has become standard for the group. He does a $30 buy-in and unlimited $30 rebuys for the first 2 hours, no add-on.

I might just go the freeze-out route as they are easier to host anyway, easier to construct a set around (I'm trying to nail down my set from the PCF promo chips).
 
In my experience Addons only increase stacks and lengthen the overall tournament time. Plus it’s just another hassle and something else for you to manage as host. If you want a longer tourney just bake it into the starting stacks.

On rebuys, make it unlimited until a certain cutoff point and then switch to a freezeout format. It allows aggressive players to run as crazy as they want early while building the pot, without extending the tournament length too much with excessive addons.

Just my $.02 after running tournaments the last few years and trying all combinations of everything diacussed herein.
 
I don't want to copy the other guy's format exactly and want my game to be a little bigger, but I don't think my current group would be down for $60 buy-in and $60 rebuys. Just a tad too big for about half the group I think.
 
I don't want to copy the other guy's format exactly and want my game to be a little bigger, but I don't think my current group would be down for $60 buy-in and $60 rebuys. Just a tad too big for about half the group I think.

Another option for encouraging rebuys is to include a bounty. If the initial buyin is $60 ... $50 with a $10 bounty, your rebuys would only be $50. The lower cost rebuy can be seen as enticing to the penny pinching players.

Another option would be to run a $50 bounty buyin tourney ($40 + $10 bounty). Then the rebuys are only $40... FWIW the two-twenty reload seems to be a sweet spot with my crew for tossing their cash around.
 
Another option for encouraging rebuys is to include a bounty. If the initial buyin is $60 ... $50 with a $10 bounty, your rebuys would only be $50. The lower cost rebuy can be seen as enticing to the penny pinching players.

Another option would be to run a $50 bounty buyin tourney ($40 + $10 bounty). Then the rebuys are only $40... FWIW the two-twenty reload seems to be a sweet spot with my crew for tossing their cash around.

I like that. I really like bounties.

If there is a bounty, do I start it after the rebuy period is over?
 
Bounties seem like a cool way to go, especially if you are trying to differentiate from the other guy's game..
 
So make the "pre-buy" work the way yours does, give a bonus to anyone holds onto their pre-buy until the break where they get their pre-buy chips auto-added, and make add-ons available to everyone for $30?
Yes, but I think it's unfair to give a bonus to somebody who simply didn't use their pre-buy chip. The purpose of such an approach is to give players options on how they want to manage their stack. If somebody chooses to start with more chips (which I think is an optimal strategy, depending on player style), why should they be punished (with no bonus) when compared to a player who chose to only start with half of their chips (which can also be a valid strategy, depending on player style).

No bonus for pre-buy chips at all is the only thing that makes sense to me.


Why not 12/12/5/6? Seems more standard to keep the T25 and T100 stacks the same.
More standard perhaps, but not a given. I have no issue with 12/17/4/6 stacks, although it's not my personal preference. Four T500 chips is plenty, and the T100 is a workhorse chip, usually for a couple of hours - so more than 12 on the table per player (within reason) is acceptable to me. Most of my starting stacks for tournaments with antes are 16/16/x/x for this reason.

Best reason for keeping the T100 count at 12 is to allocate the money for the extra chips somewhere else in the set that allows an expanded use of the set's breakdown.
 
Not for me, because someone who rebuys then adds-on, without even playing a hand, can start play after the break with more chips than somone who didn’t bust. For me, that’s an absolute no-no.
Agree. You get one. Otherwise you're going to end up with some super-strange angling
 
I've switched the starting stacks to 8/8/4/7

I think I'm going to go with a $50 buy-in, $10 is bounty, $40 into prize pool, rebuys for $40 no add-on.

Looks good!! (y) :thumbsup:

My only suggestion would be to stick
With 12-12-5-6 stacks. They make for a little more splashy play, and less change making. I think 8-8-4-6 is more for trying to stretch a set to maximize players when you’re tight on chips. If you aren’t short on chips... use em!
 
In my experience Addons only increase stacks and lengthen the overall tournament time. Plus it’s just another hassle and something else for you to manage as host. If you want a longer tourney just bake it into the starting stacks.

On rebuys, make it unlimited until a certain cutoff point and then switch to a freezeout format. It allows aggressive players to run as crazy as they want early while building the pot, without extending the tournament length too much with excessive addons.

^agree with both of these points^
 
BG, you said, "Players are issued T10000 starting chips and a T10K "Pre-buy" plaque that does not play, but can be exchanged for T10000 chips anytime between hands, including before the event starts (and is auto-converted to chips at second break)."

How many players exchange it for an additional 10K at the beginning? I agree that's where you would get the most bang for your buck (as a player) and I can't imagine not doing it right then if it's an option. You probably know this pretty exactly, but if not, would you mind estimating the following?
  1. What percent of players take it all in the beginning?
  2. What percent of players will add it while they still have chips but before it is required?
  3. What percent will wait until they have no choice?
I don't know I'd consider doing this, but with our deep-stack structure, that could be a possible option. At the very least, I'm going to mark this down for my next player survey (probably in Nov.) to ask if they would like the option.
 
Nothing wrong with that approach, but it's not a re-buy. We do it in our league games -- players are issued T10000 starting chips and a T10K "Pre-buy" plaque that does not play, but can be exchanged for T10000 chips anytime between hands, including before the event starts (and is auto-converted to chips at second break).
This is fascinating to me - cool twist.
But @Gameface proposed format seems insane to me. So I can shove like crazy, and when I get felted, I get a free stack? And the only penalty to that strategy is that a full-stack sized addon will cost me an additional 1/3 buyin? I don't like it.
 
This is fascinating to me - cool twist.
But @Gameface proposed format seems insane to me. So I can shove like crazy, and when I get felted, I get a free stack? And the only penalty to that strategy is that a full-stack sized addon will cost me an additional 1/3 buyin? I don't like it.
Yeah, you guys talked me off the ledge on that. I appreciate it.
 
How many players exchange it for an additional 10K at the beginning? I agree that's where you would get the most bang for your buck (as a player) and I can't imagine not doing it right then if it's an option. You probably know this pretty exactly, but if not, would you mind estimating the following?
  1. What percent of players take it all in the beginning?
  2. What percent of players will add it while they still have chips but before it is required?
  3. What percent will wait until they have no choice?
Personally, I think that starting with the maximum chips available is the most +EV approach, but it typically works out this way:

1. 20% to 25% redeem immediately -- this is usually a combination of the most experienced players and some very aggressive players (bullies)
2. 55% to 70% redeem during the redemption period **
3. 10% to 20% redeem at break (no choice) -- usually the weaker players who weren't forced to take it during play (#2), or those who doubled up early and didn't need it

** Of those who do redeem the pre-buy chip during play (#2), about half do so when 'felted' after losing their current chips, and about half will do so voluntarily while still having chips (although usually they are very short-stacked following a big loss). Only a couple of experienced players (who don't take the chips initially) actually use the pre-buy chip to proactively manage their stack size in relation to that of other players and to prevent becoming short-stacked.


The number of re-buys has dropped slightly since the pre-buy concept was introduced several years ago, since often an early bad-beat (or bad play) doesn't result in elimination, but just the redemption of the player's pre-buy chip..... and then they tighten up to avoid elimination. Related, the number of players who double-up and hit the second break with massive stacks is also down, so the playing field is a bit more leveled in that regard. Another result is that the number of players totally eliminated before second break has dropped to almost zero..... so if keeping players involved in the game longer before busting out is the goal ( @Poker Zombie ), the pre-buy approach works in that regard.

One aspect I've noticed recently this year is a tendency of a few relatively tight players to go into short-stack mode when their chip count drops significantly, knowing that they can get more chips if unsuccessful with an all-in. I personally think that redeeming the pre-buy at that point to increase their stack size is the better option (and would be more in alignment with their play style), but that doesn't appear to be what is happening.


This past season was our fourth one since introducing the pre-buy concept. The first attempt used 30K stacks, issuing 10K and two 10K pre-buy chips with no re-buys (so players could start with 10k, 20k, or 30k). The past three seasons have used 20K stacks, issuing 10K and one 10K pre-buy, and adding re-buys back into the structure. I am undecided what to do for next season -- we may continue as-is, change it to 10K stacks with two 5K pre-buys, or eliminate it altogether. I'm leaning towards the latter, and using the pre-buy concept only for our supporting events.
 
I'm sure this has been discussed, but if I run a $50 buy-in with an included $10 bounty but allow rebuys until 1st break, would you guys:

1 -- Start the bounty after the rebuy period is over?
2 -- Award the bounty from the start and give an option to purchase another bounty with a rebuy ($40 to rebuy + $10 for another bounty chip)?
3 -- Make the rebuy cost $50 and it comes with another bounty chip?
4 -- Only award the bounty if the person is eliminated (either they decide not to rebuy or it is after the rebuy period)?
 
I do a $20 buy-in with $5 of it going to bounties. I also allow rebuys. When a player eliminates someone (at any point during the tournament) they get their bounty chip. When the eliminated player rebuys it's for the full $20 and they get another bounty chip. So if they get busted again they give away that bounty chip. If they win the tournament they cash in their own chip.

I just recently added bounties to my game and the guys loved it. They liked having a chance to get at least a little money back if they bust someone, even if they don't cash in the tournament. I think it also helped with adding money to the pot because people were a little more willing to call all-ins hoping they can get the bounty.
 
Events like this are called "Second Chance" tournaments. The add-on you suggest for peeps having used their second chance is unfair to the other players, IMO. You really don't need an add-on for this type of tourney since most players won't take their re-buy until the break.
 

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