How to tell someone that "Selectively Chopping" is a d*ck move without being a d*ck yourself? (1 Viewer)

MyLastChip

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Here’s what I recommend:

1) ask to chop if they have chopped before
2) if they say no, play the hand ruthlessly aggressively
3) when you win, parade around the table like you’re a Field Marshall in Napoleon’s Grand Armee while loudly and rhythmically chanting “YOU SHOULDA CHOP! YOU SHOULDA CHOP”. If you can grab something that you can brandish like a baton that would be ideal, so as to further enhance your assumed position of unadulterated power and supreme authority.

Alternative take:

- if he has an original name like Herbert or something, ask the brush to change the name on your players card for waitlists to HERBERT SUX or something of that ilk.

FWIW, if his name really is Herbert, that’s pretty much the dream scenario. You’ve hit the jackpot.
Man I need to get to one of your games!

Perhaps a little math is in order? So, 99% of the players chop 100% the time . . . . .

Let's say the OP is a full time pro. Really more than that, playing sixty hours a week. This works out to ~2,000 hands a week and 500 hands in one of the blinds.

But it shouldn't be common for a table to fold around to the blinds. At least it isn't common at the stakes I play. Perhaps our original poster plays way above my level and has other experiences with the game devolving into a ultra nitty fold fest? One time in ten seems pretty nitty to me - three times an hour. If I collected data, I expect this to happen less than a dozen times a session.

Start with the nitty game. Five hundred hands in the blinds a week. fifty chop opportunities a week. 99% on the time is a sure chop. But twice a month Hero runs into someone who selectively chops. Maybe Hero doesn't get his expected chop once a month.

Of course, hero might not play 60 hours a week. Or he might try to avoid nitty tables where so many hands are folded around. Maybe this doesn't happen even once a month.

The question I ponder is how someone who plays full time poker can get so bent about a rare event with trivial financial consequences. Paying half of one extra rake, once a month or less is a petty thing. That is why I wondered if the original poster was joking - the impact on the win rate is ~ less than 0.01bb per hour played.

Maybe this was a one time thing where the villain really got under hero's skin. Because the angst surely can't be grounded in reduction of win rates.

I have to think this reflects a leak in hero's game. Getting tilted over trivial rare events is a far bigger leak than less than one bb per month lost to non-compliant choppers -=- DrStrange
I recently started playing in a actual casino (first time with any structure) in 2021. I haven't been able to this year at all. So I consider myself still VERY new to the game. And the situation came up, "wanna chop?". I probably looked at him like a deer in headlights, I said "Huh". He said again "you wanna chop?" and as I was saying "Uhhhhh" he just tossed in his cards and was like "its okay". and that was it he threw em in. I had no Idea of what the chop meant, I had seen others do it but didn't know why.

My thoughts from a very green poker player is I felt that pressure. The game still moves for me very fast when I'm at the casino, Literally have had people tell me after showdown when I was in position "why didn't you bet? you had the absolute nuts" and the looks on their faces were great in disbelief. And I'm sitting there glad I just won 40 bucks on a hand. and I cant even tell you how many times I would be in the big blind and limp around and small blind throws in a 5 dollar chip for a call and I would fold, then see dealer deal the cards without everyone else calling. :ROFL: :ROFLMAO: and even had a dealer or 2 quickly try and explain it too me, but again the game was fast. I didn't want to be that guy, holding up action, appearing to not know what I was doing, when in fact everyone was was probably thinking "this guy know what he's doing?". Guys making seat changes as soon as seats opened up to be my buddy on my left. And looking back at my bet sizing.... I have improved since those but still have well under 100 hours live casino play. but it was daunting going and playing for the first time. now after reading a couple books and studying some I have a better grasp of the game. Was a pretty rough start though. But I bet everyone was glad I was at the table!

I Just didn't see or know what the point of chopping was at the time. And it still kinda puzzles me. who usually initiates the chop? SB or BB? Im assuming SB. can the BB initiate a Chop?
 

Schmendr1ck

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I Just didn't see or know what the point of chopping was at the time. And it still kinda puzzles me. who usually initiates the chop? SB or BB? Im assuming SB. can the BB initiate a Chop?
IME, SB almost always asks the BB just because SB has to act first.

I totally get being overwhelmed by casino play when you're new to it, because we've all been there at some point. I also think this is a good reminder to the rest of us: be nice to the noobs! Don't assume everybody at the table has the same amount of casino experience (and knowledge of etiquette etc.) that you do.
 

Jimulacrum

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I have a single where...

Years ago, this guy who I worked with needed a quarter to have enough change to get a soda from the vending machine. He asked a number of us if he could have a quarter, when he got to me I said sure and took quarter out of the change jug I had on my desk. A number of weeks later I noticed that the change level in my jug had dropped a lot (from 4-5" in depth to < 1" in depth). I say to the guy in the cube next to me something to the effect of "dude, you see anyone taking my change?", he laughs and says "talk to [name redacted]" (they guy who needed the quarter). I go ask d'bag about the change and he stated that since I gave him the quarter I had therefore somehow tacitly agreed to give him all my change and he had used it to purchase himself soda's and snacks over the last x weeks. Since then, the change jug has always been locked in the desk.

TLDR: Just because you think straight, don't assume everyone else does.

To the original poster. If I'm in the BB and you ask me to chop the answer is no (and I'll probably re raise you a lot the rest of the session). I won't surrender position just becuase it's heads-up (hell, I love head's up action w/position).
I bet you anything this same guy steals people's lunches too.

"If Josh didn't want me to eat his lunch, he wouldn't have left it there in the fridge unattended."

Thieves always have a story. Bottom line is that if you're still working with this loser, you're still working with a thief.
 

RagahRagah

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The topic itself brings the dicks out, doesn't it?

I believe in etiquette. That said, it's more about the attitude. If someone is ignorant to it or just chooses not to abide by it, it's not a rule, no problem. But when someone is purposely a dick and/or is angle shooting, we're gonna have some words. And the fact that anyone would spend their time responding to this thread chastising you as if you did something wrong simply by asking a question... well, they are probably the type of people I'm talking about. Whatevs.

So personally I'd say he's not being a dick. Use discretion.
 

Jimulacrum

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If someone is ignorant to it or just chooses not to abide by it, it's not a rule, no problem. But when someone is purposely a dick and/or is angle shooting, we're gonna have some words.
I don't appreciate the implication that I'm a dick, but I agree with what you're saying here.

I never offer a chop myself. I'd just rather not. If a chop is offered to me, I may accept or reject it for any number of reasons, but they're all innocent. I don't angle-shoot because I love the game and it's bad for the game. (My hand isn't usually a factor because I usually haven't looked until my turn.)

OP didn't do anything wrong by asking a question, but the premise of the question was flawed. The other player doesn't need to be lectured about the Unstated Perpetual Agreement to Chop. OP needs to state his expectations clearly and let the other player act with understanding, instead of blindsiding him with some hidden custom that doesn't make sense to everyone.
 

RagahRagah

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I don't appreciate the implication that I'm a dick, but I agree with what you're saying here.

I never offer a chop myself. I'd just rather not. If a chop is offered to me, I may accept or reject it for any number of reasons, but they're all innocent. I don't angle-shoot because I love the game and it's bad for the game. (My hand isn't usually a factor because I usually haven't looked until my turn.)

OP didn't do anything wrong by asking a question, but the premise of the question was flawed. The other player doesn't need to be lectured about the Unstated Perpetual Agreement to Chop. OP needs to state his expectations clearly and let the other player act with understanding, instead of blindsiding him with some hidden custom that doesn't make sense to everyone.

I didn't address anyone and that quote doesn't state anything that isn't damning so if you took offense then perhaps that should give you pause. I dunno what to tell you. If you don't angle shoot I'm not sure why you took offense.
 

jd2010

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"You want to just chop and move on? We are paying time rake or we are playing a 6 dollar pot and no one wants to watch this" ... ive almost never had anyone randomly decline a chop in a game or selectively chop because its legitimately a waste of time to play a HU BvB pot and its bad for the game
 

Jimulacrum

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I didn't address anyone and that quote doesn't state anything that isn't damning so if you took offense then perhaps that should give you pause. I dunno what to tell you. If you don't angle shoot I'm not sure why you took offense.
And the fact that anyone would spend their time responding to this thread chastising you as if you did something wrong simply by asking a question... well, they are probably the type of people I'm talking about.
I've been one of the main antagonists in this thread, arguing that OP is out of line trying to impose this on a stranger as if it's actual etiquette.
 

RagahRagah

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I've been one of the main antagonists in this thread, arguing that OP is out of line trying to impose this on a stranger as if it's actual etiquette.
I get it. I don't get the feeling he is being unreasonable, though. Like I said, it's more about the attitude for me.
 

RagahRagah

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IME, SB almost always asks the BB just because SB has to act first.

I totally get being overwhelmed by casino play when you're new to it, because we've all been there at some point. I also think this is a good reminder to the rest of us: be nice to the noobs! Don't assume everybody at the table has the same amount of casino experience (and knowledge of etiquette etc.) that you do.
This is a key point I adhere to. I never have understood grown adults treating people like crap because they are new/uninitiated. Everyone starts off that way. Besides, be thankful for new players because part of their learning experience will be giving you money. ;D
 

KarateMaster72

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Hmmm:unsure: Can you believe I have NEVER been asked to chop pre flop in a cash game? I even played for a living for about 3 years. I don't say professionally..... because I am far from that level of play. Anyway, I don't think I have ever been asked. I don't know what my reaction would be. I mean obviously they're most likely not asking if the hold a premium, right? I do believe I have seen a dealer ask two players if they wanted to chop.I guess if I was in a blind and had napkins I would accept. But if the other blind is asking, wouldn't that mean his hand wasn't great? Guess it would depend on my hand, whether or not I was familiar with their ranges and how they acted at the table previously to be honest
 

jd2010

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Hmmm:unsure: Can you believe I have NEVER been asked to chop pre flop in a cash game? I even played for a living for about 3 years. I don't say professionally..... because I am far from that level of play. Anyway, I don't think I have ever been asked. I don't know what my reaction would be. I mean obviously they're most likely not asking if the hold a premium, right? I do believe I have seen a dealer ask two players if they wanted to chop.I guess if I was in a blind and had napkins I would accept. But if the other blind is asking, wouldn't that mean his hand wasn't great? Guess it would depend on my hand, whether or not I was familiar with their ranges and how they acted at the table previously to be honest
The standard line of play is to talk to person on your left and right in some natural course of things to see if they would chop or not, failing that, ask to chop every time, failing that, dont look at your cards until someone has entered the pot or its folded to you and youve asked BB or vice versa.
It doesnt come up often and i play screw around tiny stakes when I play live, but if I was playing in anything bigger than 2/5 I would be more stringent about doing what I mentioned above.
 

KarateMaster72

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Just an fyi: you can comfortably call yourself a professional because doing something for a living is the very definition
Well, in that case I am a professional martial arts instructor. I guess I was a professional poker player for a while. And since I was 7 years old I've been a professional asshole
 

grelco

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I've never played cash games in a casino, but was thinking about starting. I'm glad this thread came up because I would have been the deer in the headlights selective blind chopper. My perspective as an inexperienced player - it is of course rude/inappropriate to selectively chop, once you think it through. But someone without experience might not realize that in the moment. Calm explanation of how it works seems like the best idea. If they continue to selectively chop afterwards, then they're a dick.
 

ekricket

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I've never played cash games in a casino, but was thinking about starting. I'm glad this thread came up because I would have been the deer in the headlights selective blind chopper. My perspective as an inexperienced player - it is of course rude/inappropriate to selectively chop, once you think it through. But someone without experience might not realize that in the moment. Calm explanation of how it works seems like the best idea. If they continue to selectively chop afterwards, then they're a dick.
Casino cash tables are full of dicks for all kinds of reasons
 

upNdown

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Casino cash tables are full of dicks for all kinds of reasons
Right? Little bit of a tangent here, but when they say “it takes all types” they’re talking about a casino poker table. And plenty of those types are dicks. Some of them are just good people with bad tempers, and some of them are legit bad people criminal types. Some of them seem like (or may be) respectable professional types but who will fuck you hard the very first chance they get. It’s a cross section of life, for sure. Personally I find it refreshing and honest to be sitting at the table with a kindly old grandma and a guy who would straight up kill me, because frankly our world is too often too compartmentalized. But it’s not for the faint of heart or the thin skinned.
 

KarateMaster72

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Played a cash game at the casino today for the first time in years. Usually play at home. Anyway, The chop situation came up. One guy was all for it. The next guy much much older decided. Nope. Everybody folded pre-flop, but these two. And the older gentleman did not make any bet until the river after it had been checked each time. Also, I realized how bad I hate 1/3. Doesn't matter if you have pocket kings and raise pre-flop. They will chase ace seven unsuited to the river
 
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RainmanTrail

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Played a cash game at the casino today for the first time in years. Usually play at home. Anyway, The chop situation came up. One guy was all for it. The next guy much much older decided. Nope. Everybody folded pre-flop, but these two. And the older gentleman did not make any bet until the river after it had been checked each time. Also, I realized how bad I hate 1/3. Doesn't matter if you have pocket kings and raise pre-flop. They will chase a seven unsuited to the river

You say you hate it, but this is what you want to see. You win money at poker primarily because other players make mistakes. If you're not beating the game, it's not because the other players called bets that they shouldn't have.
 

KarateMaster72

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You say you hate it, but this is what you want to see. You win money at poker primarily because other players make mistakes. If you're not beating the game, it's not because the other players called bets that they shouldn't have.
Just my opinion. I hate it. I did well. The only reason why I played one three is they don't have anything higher. You can make money at 1/3 But it is agonizing at times. 2/5 is better in my opinion. And 5/10 seems to weed a lot of people out. I understand you make money on people's mistakes. It just gets aggravating sometimes.
 

RagahRagah

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You say you hate it, but this is what you want to see. You win money at poker primarily because other players make mistakes. If you're not beating the game, it's not because the other players called bets that they shouldn't have.
As a primarily tournament player, so true. These are the guys you make money off early on. They get lucky hear and there but ultimately they don't last long.
 

KarateMaster72

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As a primarily tournament player, so true. These are the guys you make money off early on. They get lucky hear and there but ultimately they don't last long.
Absolutely agree. But sometimes that luck runs quite a while lol. Like I said I do okay but it just gets annoying sometimes. They have a lottery style about them
 

RagahRagah

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Absolutely agree. But sometimes that luck runs quite a while lol. Like I said I do okay but it just gets annoying sometimes. They have a lottery style about them
It does. You just wanna stay sharp and alert so you can reap the benefits of the fact that winning the lottery doesn't happen that often.
 

Eriks

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I guess most of us don’t play for a living/any serious sums of money. While it’s easy to beat really bad players, the formula for doing so can be very tedious: fold a lot and make a hand and value bet. The few times I get to play, I wanna play with people that knows what they’re doing so I can challenge myself and get to use all the tools in the toolbox.

Edit: I’m talking about homegames
 

KarateMaster72

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I guess most of us don’t play for a living/any serious sums of money. While it’s easy to beat really bad players, the formula for doing so can be very tedious: fold a lot and make a hand and value bet. The few times I get to play, I wanna play with people that knows what they’re doing so I can challenge myself and get to use all the tools in the toolbox.

Edit: I’m talking about homegames
That's what drove me nuts about the other day. I literally folded for the first hour. Almost every hand. Pretty close to it. And these people have memories like goldfish lol
 
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