How to improve tournament structure? Currently too much gamble. (1 Viewer)

nzepeda2

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Hi,

we are currently playing 15 minute intervals with high BB's in the beginning, and then quickly very small BB's in the end, basically a turbo event. But it's something that is agreed on by most players. Just wondering if there is something I can suggest to open up the idea of balancing the structure.

Currently , 20,000 starting stack.
I believe it is 25, 50, 100, 500, 1000, 5000 denominations, which is a lot
15 minute intervals, ranging from (25-50 Level 1) up to 5000 - 10,000 on the last game played.
It's a big out of balance, but its hard to change too much at once for our group due to tradition.

any easy suggestions?
 
You control how "gambly" a tournament is with the blind structure. One thing that will reduce the "gamble" a little without your players knowing it did that would be expanding to 20 minute rounds. A little more time on each blind level before it goes up will allow for more play.
 
Blinds should not " double", if you are going straight from , say, 100/200 to 200/400, that sucks.
Figure your "final level" will be around when the BB equals 1/20th of the total chips in play, and work backwards from there , without doubling and within your allotted time .
If you can at least have the 1st 3 or 4 levels at 20 mins ( if not all), that will help as mentioned...
 
This is the structure we use for our home tournaments, also starting with 20k starting stacks. We run 20 minute levels, and there's only a few levels where the blinds grow by a full 2x: the obvious level 1 to level 2 jump, and then right after breaks (L6&11) and one other as we start wanting to push for the event to end (L13). I don't think we've ever played past level 13, and these events usually run anywhere from 3-5 hours depending on how splashy and/or nitty people get. We've only hit 5 hours one time, usually it's closer to 3.5-4 hours.

1. 25-50
2. 50-75
3. 75-150
4. 100-200
5. 150-300
BREAK - 25s COLORED UP
6. 300-600
7. 500-1000
8. 700-1500
9. 1000-2000
10. 1500-3000
BREAK - 100s & 500s COLORED UP
11. 3000-6000
12. 5000-10000
13. 10000-20000
14. 15000-30000
15. 20000-40000
16. 30000-60000

We started with levels as recommended by @Chris Manzoni's often-referenced YouTube video, and tweaked it a bit to our liking.
 
Thanks for all your replies. I appreciate the thoughts. yeah I saw Manzoni's structure with his custom chips. I'm thinking I may have to invest in the poker chips for the group in order to change their structure, since I'm a newer player in their group. But that breakdown makes sense. Yeah, I believe it was:

25-50
50-100
100-200
200-400
300-600
400-800
500-1000
1000-2000
2000-4000
3000-6000
4000-8000
5000-10,000
10,000-20,000
but it felt longer since unlimited rebuys.

My other question is, in WSOP main event (final table), they usually have 3 denominations left for a 9 handed game, is that bad for a home game?
Example:
WSOP 2021 Main Event had:
100,000
1,000,000
5,000,000

Was this only because it was a 2 hour level based structure ?
 
I'd also add a few levels from 500/1000 -2000/4000

Doubling 2 times in a row there really switches the game from mid-deep stack to short stack shove fest in 20-40 minutes. Carrying 50 BBs in 400-800 level you'd be at 10 BB in an hour or less at 2000/4000. Adding two levels here might help ease the end game a bit.
 
Welcome!
Don't forget to use the search tool, we have a few 'Tournament Directors' that post all kinds of info, some of the links can be found on the New Members page found in my signature.
 
I'd also add a few levels from 500/1000 -2000/4000

Doubling 2 times in a row there really switches the game from mid-deep stack to short stack shove fest in 20-40 minutes. Carrying 50 BBs in 400-800 level you'd be at 10 BB in an hour or less at 2000/4000. Adding two levels here might help ease the end game a bit.

How are you determining [50 BBs in 400-800 level and 10 BB at 2000/4000]? What’s the calculation? Probably crystal clear for most, but I only do cash games and want to learn to run tournaments. Thanks!
 
How are you determining [50 BBs in 400-800 level and 10 BB at 2000/4000]? What’s the calculation? Probably crystal clear for most, but I only do cash games and want to learn to run tournaments. Thanks!
At 400/800 ..... 800 x 50 = 40000
At 2000/4000 ..4000 x 10 = 40000

40000 in chips total is 50BB at one level and 10 at the other
 
I think the structure is still too fast. Starting at 25/50, youre up to 200/400 in only 3 levels.

Take a look at this schedule:
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/tournament-setup-riddle-help.99870/post-2068107
20k starting stacks starting at 25/50 is really deep. Either parts of the structure will move too fast or the tournament will take a really long time. And I’m ALL for deep stacked tournaments that take a really long time, but they’re probably not best for home tournaments.

I feel like we’re largely kidding ourselves when we try to massage structures to take the gamble out or make them fairer. You can certainly smooth out the blinds to keep the increases consistent. But every way that exists to take the gamble out of a tournament (more levels, longer levels, more chips) serve to lengthen the tournament. A lot of people compromise to have it start slow so everybody gets lots of play. Some people compromise by having it end slow, so you get the best play when the money’s on the line. But you have to compromise somewhere. Or play forever, which is cool if everybody’s for it.
 
I feel like we’re largely kidding ourselves when we try to massage structures to take the gamble out or make them fairer. You can certainly smooth out the blinds to keep the increases consistent. But every way that exists to take the gamble out of a tournament (more levels, longer levels, more chips) serve to lengthen the tournament. A lot of people compromise to have it start slow so everybody gets lots of play. Some people compromise by having it end slow, so you get the best play when the money’s on the line. But you have to compromise somewhere. Or play forever, which is cool if everybody’s for it.

So agree with this statement. Tournaments are designed to eliminate all but one player. Everyone has to go broke sometime and it's easy for eliminated players to blame a structure flaw, or a bad card or something like that. But that's how tournaments work.

To the main problem from the original post.

sorry, usually around 8-15 players. if that helps
Thanks for all your replies. I appreciate the thoughts. yeah I saw Manzoni's structure with his custom chips. I'm thinking I may have to invest in the poker chips for the group in order to change their structure, since I'm a newer player in their group. But that breakdown makes sense. Yeah, I believe it was:

25-50
50-100
100-200
200-400
300-600
400-800
500-1000
1000-2000
2000-4000
3000-6000
4000-8000
5000-10,000
10,000-20,000
but it felt longer since unlimited rebuys.

My other question is, in WSOP main event (final table), they usually have 3 denominations left for a 9 handed game, is that bad for a home game?
Example:
WSOP 2021 Main Event had:
100,000
1,000,000
5,000,000

Was this only because it was a 2 hour level based structure ?

Yeah I see 5 nasty doubles I would try and smooth out, including the first 3 levels. When the blinds double, your stack in terms of big blinds is cut in half. You do this 3 times at the start of the tournament, and suddenly a 400BB stack is now only worth 50BB or roughly 12% of what it was at the start. That's why you are feeling the gambol. Now again, blinds to have to raise to force the action and the condition that all but one player get eliminated at the end, but there's probably a smoother way than taking 87% of a stacks starting value in 3 round in terms of big blinds.

Also I do think 15 minute levels are too quick for full tables. There is risk the button won't even make one trip around the table which could be adding to the perception of it being too gambly. I have a minimum of 18 minutes when I host.

So again, the 20BB rule is a good guideline. Most of my tournaments end a level or even two levels before the level when 20BB are in play. So to calculate this Let's say on the high side you get 15 players and 10 re-entries. That means 25 * T20K are in play or T500K, divide that by 20BB to get that level and the tournament should end when the BB is around 25K. In my base T25 structure, I have a progression from 10K-20K to 15K-30K so we'll plan that as the ending level. It also looks like you are targeting about 4hrs plus breaks having 16 levels at 15 mins each. If we increase to 18 minute levels, then roughly 15 levels fit into this space, let's work backward from there. As for ensuring a smoother progression, I am a big believer in tournament levels that are multiples of each chip by 2-4, 3-6, 4-8, 6-12, and 8-16 after optional early levels of 1-1, 1-2, and 1-3.

15K-30K
10K-20K

8K-16K
6K-12K
4K-8K
3K-6K
2K-4K

1500-3000
1000-2000

800-1600
600-1200
400-800
300-600
200-400
150-300

So keeping the 20K starting stack, you should start at 150-300 to play 15 levels until reaching 15K-30K.

Now if you reduce to 10K starting stack with 25 entries means about 250K in play . Divided by 20 means the 20BB rule would be in effect when the BB is between 12K and 16K.

Working backward from there gives you this structure.

6K-12K
4K-8K
3K-6K
2K-4K

1500-3000
1000-2000

800-1600
600-1200
400-800
300-600
200-400
150-300
100-200
75-150
50-100

So there are options to get a smoother progression and ease players into the higher stakes instead of doubles that force the gamble quickly.

Hope this helps,
 
Tournaments are designed to eliminate all but one player. Everyone has to go broke sometime and it's easy for eliminated players to blame a structure flaw, or a bad card or something like that. But that's how tournaments work.

there are options to get a smoother progression and ease players into the higher stakes instead of doubles that force the gamble quickly.
Ah, but there's the rub. Since blind structure progression -- and how fast/slow it feels -- is a combination of stack size, rate of increase, and time, doubling the blinds every level doesn't necessarily "force the gamble quickly".

I've posted a similar comparison before, but it serves as a good reference of how there are multiple ways to skin the tourney blind structure cat, and that all (or a combination thereof) can be very reasonable approaches.

I offer the four structures below, each with the same starting stack size (10k), opening blind level (100/200, 50bb), and estimated tournament length (3 hours). The only differences are 1) the duration of the blind levels in each structure, and 2) the rate at which the blinds increase per level.

The first and last structures below are opposite extremes regarding times and rates (very short times with very small increases vs very long times with very large increases), but all four structures start and end at the same place -- they just take different paths to get there. The number of big blinds relative to the 10k starting stack is shown at the beginning of each hour:

A) 12 minute levels, ~21% avg increases
L1 100/200 50bb
L2 125/250
L3 150/300
L4 175/350
L5 200/400
L6 250/500 20bb
L7 300/600
L8 400/800
L9 500/1000
L10 600/1200
L11 700/1400 7bb
L12 800/1600
L13 1000/2000
L14 1200/2400
L15 1500/3000

B) 20 minute levels, ~40% avg increases
L1 100/200 50bb
L2 150/300
L3 200/400
L4 300/600 17bb
L5 400/800
L6 600/1200
L7 800/1600 6bb
L8 1100/2200
L9 1500/3000

C) 30 minute levels, ~72% avg increases
L1 100/200 50bb
L2 175/350
L3 300/600 17bb
L4 600/1000
L5 900/1800 6bb
L6 1500/3000

D) 60 minute levels, ~288% avg increases
L1 100/200 50bb
L2 400/800 13bb
L3 1500/3000 3bb

What is really interesting (in terms of the blind increases discussion) is that after the initial 20 minutes (where blinds in both structures are the same 100/200), Structure D -- with a whopping 300% initial blind increase -- is actually slower (i.e. less demanding) than Structure B for the next 40 minutes, then just marginally faster for only 20 minutes before being equal again for 20 minutes, and then becoming significantly slower for another 20 minutes until reaching Hour 3.

So in terms of the 'blinds pressure' on stacks (being forced to gamble quickly), the significantly higher increases over longer time periods of Structure D is actually less demanding overall (for the first two hours) than the more gradual increases and shorter blind times of Structure B.

Structure D does slam down hard at the beginning of the third hour with another big 275% jump (eventually reaching equilibrium in the latter part of the hour), but the real takeaway here is that with some softening changes to that third hour, the longer times and larger increase during the first two hours actually reduce the "forced gamble" one would expect from the blinds quadrupling. Similar results can be found cross-comparing the other structures as well.

Tacking the last three 20-minute levels of Structure B onto Structure D (replacing L3) actually creates an arguably better structure than either one -- even with the initial 300% increase (and new 100% increase at L3):

Hybrid, ~118% avg increases
L1 100/200, 60 minutes
L2 400/800, 60 minutes
L3 800/1600, 20 minutes
L4 1100/2200, 20 minutes
L5 1500/3000, 20 minutes

Doubling the blinds isn't always bad after all, it seems. And in this example, consistency isn't necessarily that important, either.

Just have a plan when you build a structure, and try to avoid having the increases jumping massively both up and down.
 

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