How to exploit players with very high VPIP? (2 Viewers)

[grebe]

Playing bloated, multi-way pots OOP in situations where there is no FE pre and your opponents range is ATC is a recipe for disaster IMHO

In games like this, I would go away from standard raise sizing to find the size that makes people start to fold. I would use that size for all my raises.

 

[boltonguy]

Sounds like being the aggressor preflop then continuing on the flop would be printing money to me. Remember, if your range is better than theirs, you are going to flop better than they will the majority of the time. When you are better than they are the majority of the time, you will win the majority of the money. THE KEY is to make sure your range is solid. Don't' get cute with suited connectors and the like. Play a solid range and play it aggressively. If they call too much, punish them for it.

You just have to make sure you can profile them and figure out how much of a station each player is. Bluffing can be risky because some of these guys will call down three streets with bottom pair ... when you're in a pot with four stations and wide ranges, best to go for value and not bluff too much IMHO.

 

[boltonguy]

In games like this, I would go away from standard raise sizing to find the size that makes people start to fold. I would use that size for all my raises.

yeah but after an orbit theyll just adjust and start calling in my experience. At .25/.50 its play money for most, so even a $3 open is going to get 4+ callers when they realize we're doing it every hand. I'm generally limping behind or opening to a standard size and playing for value post flop. Occasionally bluffing when raising pre, betting flop and heads up on turn/river against one of the guys who I know folds. X/R turn with a gutshot and bet pot on river with a busted FD and got folds from him last night but I have to be careful because there are guys at the game who will call these bets with K-high.

 

[Jimulacrum]

You just have to make sure you can profile them and figure out how much of a station each player is. Bluffing can be risky because some of these guys will call down three streets with bottom pair ... when you're in a pot with four stations and wide ranges, best to go for value and not bluff too much IMHO.

Yeah, this is not the game where you want to try bluffing, basically at all. There are too many people playing too many hands. There's bound to be at least one player who thinks he's strong enough to stick around to showdown, every hand. Definitely remain aggressive with your premium hands, and experiment with bet sizing until you get what you want out of the raises, but be sure you're always betting for value. Forget about fold equity. It doesn't exist.

But beyond that, if the game is both loose and passive, there's a lot of room for you to widen your opening range. When players play like this, you can often limp in with speculative openers, hang around while they let you hit all kinds of big hands for cheap/free, and get paid off big on later streets. This is more typically a LHE strategy for "no fold'em" games, as NLHE tends to thin fields a little more. But if the shoe fits, exploit it.

If the game is not also passive, or if it's only loose preflop but tightens up or gets very aggressive post-flop, then that would call for a different approach. But if we're talking a VPIP as high as 85%, it's likely a group of players who are straight-up gambling from start to finish.`

 

[grebe]

yeah but after an orbit theyll just adjust and start calling in my experience. At .25/.50 its play money for most, so even a $3 open is going to get 4+ callers when they realize we're doing it every hand. I'm generally limping behind or opening to a standard size and playing for value post flop. Occasionally bluffing when raising pre, betting flop and heads up on turn/river against one of the guys who I know folds. X/R turn with a gutshot and bet pot on river with a busted FD and got folds from him last night but I have to be careful because there are guys at the game who will call these bets with K-high.

Good. I want them to call. If I am getting 4+ callers at $3, then I open to $5. If I think 3 will call $5, then I will open to $7. The beauty of NL (over limit) is you can have your opponent make much larger mistakes, but you have to make that happen. And, you can....since it's NL. You can bet as much as you want at any time. I just don't see the problem here, tbh. This game sounds GREAT!

 

[JustinInMN]

You just have to make sure you can profile them and figure out how much of a station each player is. Bluffing can be risky because some of these guys will call down three streets with bottom pair ... when you're in a pot with four stations and wide ranges, best to go for value and not bluff too much IMHO.

Absolutely agree, definitely tone the bluffing down. Bluffing should be limited to taking shots at modest pots with hands that may still improve to winners even if called. (AK misses for example, or straight and flush draws.) Multi-street bluffs should certainly not be in the game plan, nothing where you might be able to use a thinking player's knowledge against him is worthwhile in this sort of game.

On the flip side, never do anything fancy when you have the goods and you will get a full 3 streets of value almost all the time. You might even find more spots to go for value well below top-pair good kicker, which is where I think most players draw the line by instinct.

These players are beaten by value betting with no mercy. Bluffing too much is costly.

 

[boltonguy]

Good. I want them to call. If I am getting 4+ callers at $3, then I open to $5. If I think 3 will call $5, then I will open to $7. The beauty of NL (over limit) is you can have your opponent make much larger mistakes, but you have to make that happen. And, you can....since it's NL. You can bet as much as you want at any time. I just don't see the problem here, tbh. This game sounds GREAT!

I tried this early on and would find myself in large pots with 4+ players with KJs or 99 on a A37r board. There goes that big preflop raise down the tubes ... at least 2 of these guys connected and they're getting to showdown. I do this 3 or 4 times and I dont connect with the flop and I'm leaking like crazy. I have found it is better to wait until I have value to focus on building a pot. If there is a better way to approach it I'm game.

 

[Legend5555]

How have I never responded to this yet?!?

Advice varies based on the type of high VPIP players you are dealing with. If they are loose passive pre but normal to tight post, 3bet and raise more pre and pay fairly normal/aggressive post. If they are also loose post, stop bluffing almost entirely and just play for value.

If they are high VPIP pre and aggressive, 3 bet more and play from position more. If they are also aggressive post, trap a bit more in spots where you might normally raise. Be willing to call down lighter too.

Super basic advice.

 

[Shaggy]

Raise your premiums hard preflop. See lots of hands cheap in position. Bet/Raise strong on flops where you flop two pair or better. Don't cbet on missed flops. i.e. KQ on a A,8,2 flop. Just shut down. These opponents aren't observing your cbet frequency.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I tried this early on and would find myself in large pots with 4+ players with KJs or 99 on a A37r board. There goes that big preflop raise down the tubes ... at least 2 of these guys connected and they're getting to showdown. I do this 3 or 4 times and I dont connect with the flop and I'm leaking like crazy. I have found it is better to wait until I have value to focus on building a pot. If there is a better way to approach it I'm game.

Your last couple sentences are along the lines of what I said in my previous reply: this sounds like a good game to slip into the action with cheap hands and then push hard when you hit big. And there's definitely a lot of room for that. But you should still be raising with your big openers.

You may be used to raising with a wider range in normal games because you're up against more selective players who play tighter preflop and will often fold to c-bets. In a game with 85% VPIP gamblers, you want to tighten up your raising range to only hands that you expect to be in a dominating position preflop. However, you don't want to tighten up your raises to the extent that you're afraid to raise a strong opener like AK or AQ because it might miss the flop.

Lots of hands miss the flop. That's Hold'em. But you still should take advantage of your strong non-paired openers, because they will hit more often and harder than the weak crap your opponents are playing. Just get used to the idea that, as a trade-off for the awesome action you're getting, sometimes you have to give up after the flop without a fight. You can't win 'em all.

 

[Shaggy]

...large pots with 4+ players with KJs or 99 on a A37r board. There goes that big preflop raise down the tubes ...

I think it is okay to raise these types of hands pre against these opponents... but not as big as your premiums... JJ up to AK/AQ. With the medium pocket pairs, you want to do a smallish pf raise to build a pot... but you're shutting down if you don't flop a set. On that KJ hand, bet the flop if you flop top pair. Slow down on the turn when you're called. You don't want to hang yourself when you flop a K (pair) and your opponent flopped some shitty two-pair. Just get to a cheap showdown with the mediocre hand. If you flop two pair with that KJ type hand... that's the time to make 'em pay.

In these games you make your money value betting the snot out of your opponents... you make even more when you don't value own yourself.

Additionally, these games can be sometimes frustrating when you are card dead. Thems the breaks. Don't "try to make something happen" by playing weaker hands stronger... that just bleeds more $$.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Additionally, these games can be sometimes frustrating when you are card dead. Thems the breaks. Don't "try to make something happen" by playing weaker hands stronger... that just bleeds more $$.

This is the biggest weakness that tends to sink otherwise skilled players in a game like this. I've screwed myself over in loose fields like this the same way. You get so used to adjusting to a particular range of game textures, and then you hit one like this that's off the charts, and if you're not thinking about it the right way, you might fail to make the major adjustments.

Even playing an ABC TAG strategy in a game like this isn't great. You might be able to squeeze a modest profit long-term, but you'll be leaving a ton of money on the table, and your results will be very variable and frustrating. You'll have a lot of nights when you play super-snug, bored to tears half the night. Then you end up losing anyway because you're only playing like 13.5% of hands, and when you're in there, you always have to contest the pot with 5 or 6 other players whose hands are unpredictable.

Almost inevitably, the ABC TAG player will go on tilt after facing multiple bad beats or going many orbits with no cards (all while having to watch a bunch of donkeys win pot after pot).

Oh boy is it fun watching a strict TAG devolve into just another degenerate gambler.

 

[grebe]

However @Mojo1312 plays, yeah...just do that.