How to exploit players with very high VPIP? (1 Viewer)

ceg301

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I play in an online group and found a hud that works on the site we use. Turns out many players play with 60% plus VPIP. Should I just turn into a super nit and try to stack them early? They often call very oversized bets but bail on the flops. There are also a few players who play with single-digit VPIP so I'm guessing for them just stay away from them when they enter a hand, or if I do hammer boards with low cards on it.
 
You exploit the fact that their range is much wider than your range by raising/3betting them relentlessly. They have to get rid of their trash at some point by folding. If they are also very sticky, learn how to value bet thin. These are by far the easiest people to beat in poker.

No, you are passing up on way to many opportunities for value if you nit it up against them. You want to be in pots with people that play too many hands. Remember, you don't need to beat them every time, you just need to extract more value from them when they don't hit a monster.
 
I play in an online group and found a hud that works on the site we use. Turns out many players play with 60% plus VPIP. Should I just turn into a super nit and try to stack them early? They often call very oversized bets but bail on the flops. There are also a few players who play with single-digit VPIP so I'm guessing for them just stay away from them when they enter a hand, or if I do hammer boards with low cards on it.

In general 3 bet loose players more.

is this a private site among friends? Do they know you are using a HUD? Would they consider it cheating if they did?
 
I play in an online group and found a hud that works on the site we use. Turns out many players play with 60% plus VPIP. Should I just turn into a super nit and try to stack them early? They often call very oversized bets but bail on the flops. There are also a few players who play with single-digit VPIP so I'm guessing for them just stay away from them when they enter a hand, or if I do hammer boards with low cards on it.
Yes 60% vpip is pretty ridicoulous. But just keep playing GTO and you will end up on the winning end. Imo dont adjust your game that much, it will pay off automatically with GTO...
 
Turns out many players play with 60% plus VPIP. Should I just turn into a super nit and try to stack them early? They often call very oversized bets but bail on the flops.
Wowie! If I were in this game I would just call a lot more in position. I wouldn't widen my 3-bet range alot because that does get tough to navigate if you are 3-betting too many unpaired hands on multi-way boards that miss. But you should be able to instead just bet a lot of flops and get a lot of folds.

These villains are just playing flop bingo. And they fold when they get bored. You should be very aggressive on the flop. Call looser pre-flop, but without necessarily raising preflop a lot more often.
 
Please don't play GTO in situations where villain's can be exploited. GTO is well suited to tough games filled with formidable villains, but leaves loads of money at the table vs weak foes. Really, heroes are well advised to switch tables rather than resort to GTO (if they can)

It must be noted that 60% VPIP is no sure sign of incompetence. I have played with a few LAGs that were among the top players in the game. Not in the majority, but occasionally you will find really loose players who are top level winners.
 
Please don't play GTO in situations where villain's can be exploited. GTO is well suited to tough games filled with formidable villains. Really, heroes are well advised to switch tables rather than resort to GTO (if they can)

It must be noted that 60% VPIP is no sure sign of incompetence. I have played with a few LAGs that were among the top players in the game. Not in the majority, but occasionally you will find really loose players who are top level winners.
Why should gto not work here? At least in the longrun..
 
Yes, GTO "works" but it makes <far> less money than exploitive play. Understanding GTO is good for Hero's game, but rarely is it the most profitable playing style.

When I read the original post, I think of some "home game" where no one want's to fold. They call down top pair / ok kicker to the river, They check/call their draws. The bet sizing is often wrong. This game is filled with players who can be exploited because of these errors.

GTO has lots of fancy plays which are pointlessly unexploitable vs villains who aren't even paying attention to Hero.
 
GTO makes you unexploitable, but takes absolutely no advantage of opponents' exploitable mistakes.

To take the most +EV advantage of your opponents' mistakes, you must abandon GTO and become exploitable yourself.
Well gto gives you a guideline, doesnt mean you have to 3bet everytime in the same situation for example.
But you will be winning in the longrun, especially on a table with 60% vpip players if you follow GTO..
 
Yes, GTO "works" but it makes <far> less money than exploitive play. Understanding GTO is good for Hero's game, but rarely is it the most profitable playing style.

When I read the original post, I think of some "home game" where no one want's to fold. They call down top pair / ok kicker to the river, They check/call their draws. The bet sizing is often wrong. This game is filled with players who can be exploited because of these errors.

GTO has lots of fancy plays which are pointlessly unexploitable vs villains who aren't even paying attention to Hero.
Good points there, although i dont agree with all of it. Especially the example you gave with calling down top pair ok kicker is imo an argument for GTO...
 
Good points there, although i dont agree with all of it. Especially the example you gave with calling down top pair ok kicker is imo an argument for GTO...
Ofc you still have to make your own decisions. GTO doesnt mean you dont have to actually play the game

Edit: the moment you realize you answered your own post :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:

Time for bed in switzerland.. Goodnight
 
I think rock/paper/scissors is a helpful analogy. Optimal unexploitable strategy is to randomly select, so 1/3 frequency for each. If your opponent's frequencies are off from this, then this GTO strategy will win against them. But if you know they won't exploit any imbalance in your frequencies, then you'll make more money against them by deviating from GTO.
 
Yes, GTO "works" but it makes <far> less money than exploitive play. Understanding GTO is good for Hero's game, but rarely is it the most profitable playing style.

When I read the original post, I think of some "home game" where no one want's to fold. They call down top pair / ok kicker to the river, They check/call their draws. The bet sizing is often wrong. This game is filled with players who can be exploited because of these errors.

GTO has lots of fancy plays which are pointlessly unexploitable vs villains who aren't even paying attention to Hero.
To agree with the strange doctor, I think it's important to understand how GTO play works and what it is suited for. Basically a complete defense against observant opponents.

If you opponents are not that observant and making errors, by all means do yourself a favor and switch to an exploitive game plan. You will get way the best of the exchange of opening yourself up to exploit they won't notice.
 
I think rock/paper/scissors is a helpful analogy. Optimal unexploitable strategy is to randomly select, so 1/3 frequency for each. If your opponent's frequencies are off from this, then this GTO strategy will win against them. But if you know they won't exploit any imbalance in your frequencies, then you'll make more money against them by deviating from GTO.
Or if you know your opponent throws rock 50% of the time, and you opponent will not noticed if you deviate from balanced strategy to throw paper more often, you are making an exploitive play. If your opponent notices and counters with scissors, that works because your extra paper can be exploited the same way your opponents extra rock can be exploited, and so on, and so on in circles and I clearly cannot choose the wine in front of you.
 
I think rock/paper/scissors is a helpful analogy. Optimal unexploitable strategy is to randomly select, so 1/3 frequency for each. If your opponent's frequencies are off from this, then this GTO strategy will win against them. But if you know they won't exploit any imbalance in your frequencies, then you'll make more money against them by deviating from GTO.
Interesting analogy, because GTO RPS beats exactly nothing. Breakeven against everyone. One of my biggest pet peeve of the GTO crew, assuming that “doesn’t lose = win” especially in a negative sum game
 
Interesting analogy, because GTO RPS beats exactly nothing. Breakeven against everyone. One of my biggest pet peeve of the GTO crew, assuming that “doesn’t lose = win” especially in a negative sum game
Ah, you're right! Anyway, the way I play RPS is to do rock, rock, rock, rock, until right when I know they're going to do paper :)
 
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Interesting analogy, because GTO RPS beats exactly nothing.

This is a misunderstanding of GTO....its just not true. GTO poker is a way to play where you become unexploitable. Also, nobody PLAYS GTO poker. People try to emulate GTO, but it is not possible to play. It's kinda like "what would Jesus do". You cannot emulate Jesus, only try (hypothetically, of course).

Basically, what "unexploitable" means is your opponent will be indifferent to decisions against you, because you made the perfect play (every time) that makes them not know what to do. It does NOT mean playing break even poker. The only way a perfect GTO player loses long run is if "it" is playing against 8 other GTO playing entities. Otherwise, the non-GTO players will make their mistakes and lose (long term) to the GTO player(s). It also means that (it) will play a mixture of different ways for the same scenario so that it is less predictable. for example, on a dry flop with an A in a 3 bet pot, it might recommend betting 67% and checking 33% of the time. The computers have played this spot so many times they have figured out the most optimal mixture of times to bet and check to extract the most value from AK flopping an A on a dry board. That's what GTO is about....what to do and how much for MAXIMUM VALUE (if you bet it out every time, players could theoretically over fold to you here....thereby EXPLOITING your tendency to bet always in this spot).

Getting back to playing GTO...you can try to play GTO strategies, which is a winning strategy then deviate from GTO when you find out the way to best extract value based on the villain. HOWEVER, if you don't have a fucking clue where GTO is, you really cannot stray from GTO to become exploitative, now can you?

Exploitable poker is figuring out where your opponents weaknesses are, then adjusting to extract MORE value than if you played strictly GTO. In your case, with opponents calling preflop with way too many hands, your optimal exploitation would be to raise/3 bet more frequently against their range. If players are more tight, your exploitation would be to fold more to their raises and be more wary of when they call you. GTO is the base from where you should be moving your game left or right....based on your exact opponent. IT IS NOT break even poker.
 
In general 3 bet loose players more.

is this a private site among friends? Do they know you are using a HUD? Would they consider it cheating if they did?
It is pokerclub.now or whatever that site is. I don't know if they know Im using it but its free google chrome extension so I don't feel like I'm getting an unfair advantage that they do not have access to. I personally see it as no different than using pre flop charts or something of that sort but Im sure people will disagree. Its a group of kids from different colleges around me.
 
Wowie! If I were in this game I would just call a lot more in position. I wouldn't widen my 3-bet range alot because that does get tough to navigate if you are 3-betting too many unpaired hands on multi-way boards that miss. But you should be able to instead just bet a lot of flops and get a lot of folds.

These villains are just playing flop bingo. And they fold when they get bored. You should be very aggressive on the flop. Call looser pre-flop, but without necessarily raising preflop a lot more often.
I think this makes the most sense as an easy to implement strategy for me as an intermediate poker player.
 
vpip 60% is helpful info but is this a result of limping or people calling open raises or even 3betting? it makes a difference because it affects stack sizes/spr etc. And yes exploiting fit or fold players is a really common scenario which is different from exploiting super lags. A super lag you might adopt a baseline approach that is gto conscious but I agree, NO one actually plays gto.
 
This is a misunderstanding of GTO....its just not true. GTO poker is a way to play where you become unexploitable. Also, nobody PLAYS GTO poker. People try to emulate GTO, but it is not possible to play. It's kinda like "what would Jesus do". You cannot emulate Jesus, only try (hypothetically, of course).

Basically, what "unexploitable" means is your opponent will be indifferent to decisions against you, because you made the perfect play (every time) that makes them not know what to do. It does NOT mean playing break even poker. The only way a perfect GTO player loses long run is if "it" is playing against 8 other GTO playing entities. Otherwise, the non-GTO players will make their mistakes and lose (long term) to the GTO player(s). It also means that (it) will play a mixture of different ways for the same scenario so that it is less predictable. for example, on a dry flop with an A in a 3 bet pot, it might recommend betting 67% and checking 33% of the time. The computers have played this spot so many times they have figured out the most optimal mixture of times to bet and check to extract the most value from AK flopping an A on a dry board. That's what GTO is about....what to do and how much for MAXIMUM VALUE (if you bet it out every time, players could theoretically over fold to you here....thereby EXPLOITING your tendency to bet always in this spot).

Getting back to playing GTO...you can try to play GTO strategies, which is a winning strategy then deviate from GTO when you find out the way to best extract value based on the villain. HOWEVER, if you don't have a fucking clue where GTO is, you really cannot stray from GTO to become exploitative, now can you?

Exploitable poker is figuring out where your opponents weaknesses are, then adjusting to extract MORE value than if you played strictly GTO. In your case, with opponents calling preflop with way too many hands, your optimal exploitation would be to raise/3 bet more frequently against their range. If players are more tight, your exploitation would be to fold more to their raises and be more wary of when they call you. GTO is the base from where you should be moving your game left or right....based on your exact opponent. IT IS NOT break even poker.
Was responding to a post about Rock Paper Scissors (RPS)
 
vpip 60% is helpful info but is this a result of limping or people calling open raises or even 3betting? it makes a difference because it affects stack sizes/spr etc. And yes exploiting fit or fold players is a really common scenario which is different from exploiting super lags. A super lag you might adopt a baseline approach that is gto conscious but I agree, NO one actually plays gto.
Lots of open raises and calls. Very little 3 betting pre
 
In general 3 bet loose players more.

is this a private site among friends? Do they know you are using a HUD? Would they want to continue playing with you if they were to know you're using it and understand the magnitude of advantage it offers?
FTFY.

And OP's response:

It is pokerclub.now or whatever that site is. I don't know if they know Im using it but its free google chrome extension so I don't feel like I'm getting an unfair advantage that they do not have access to. I personally see it as no different than using pre flop charts or something of that sort but Im sure people will disagree. Its a group of kids from different colleges around me.
Please tell all the people you're playing with that you're using the HUD, explain what it does (more honestly than comparing it to a preflop chart, ideally), and show them how to set it up. I'd like to know how they respond.
 
This sounds like classic inexperienced players.

I think you should just try to get lots and lots of value.

If you have a premium, or are in position against people who are "good enough to fold", raise pre-flop a lot. If not, and people will let you limp in, limp in a lot. When you finally hit that monster, fire value bets, with the goal being to be all-in by the river. Inexperienced players will likely call you down with not-so-great hands, like J2o when they hit a J on the flop, but the turn comes a K, and the river an A.

I've also seen some highly questionable plays like, they pick up a premium (say AKo) but limp in, totally miss their hand, then bomb the flop hard, with no pair! Yikes.

Point is, because inexperienced players don't run the math, or even have a good "feel" for bet sizing, they will pay off wild bets when they shouldn't. And they also have the "but if I could just have hit my 4 for the straight..." mentality, LOL.
 
Wowie! If I were in this game I would just call a lot more in position. I wouldn't widen my 3-bet range alot because that does get tough to navigate if you are 3-betting too many unpaired hands on multi-way boards that miss. But you should be able to instead just bet a lot of flops and get a lot of folds.

These villains are just playing flop bingo. And they fold when they get bored. You should be very aggressive on the flop. Call looser pre-flop, but without necessarily raising preflop a lot more often.

Absolutely agree with this. Playing bloated, multi-way pots OOP in situations where there is no FE pre and your opponents range is ATC is a recipe for disaster IMHO. This sounds a lot like my home game. I needed to adjust from playing 25NL Fast Fold on Ignition which is more like GTO-style play. I created a play money account on PStars and played a few thousand hands and developed a strategy. This play money game plays a lot like my .25/.50 NLHE home game and with this strategy I am consistently winning. If I played this strategy on Ignition I would be crushed immediately!
 
They often call very oversized bets but bail on the flops.

Absolutely agree with this. Playing bloated, multi-way pots OOP in situations where there is no FE pre and your opponents range is ATC is a recipe for disaster IMHO. This sounds a lot like my home game. I needed to adjust from playing 25NL Fast Fold on Ignition which is more like GTO-style play. I created a play money account on PStars and played a few thousand hands and developed a strategy. This play money game plays a lot like my .25/.50 NLHE home game and with this strategy I am consistently winning. If I played this strategy on Ignition I would be crushed immediately!

Sounds like being the aggressor preflop then continuing on the flop would be printing money to me. Remember, if your range is better than theirs, you are going to flop better than they will the majority of the time. When you are better than they are the majority of the time, you will win the majority of the money. THE KEY is to make sure your range is solid. Don't' get cute with suited connectors and the like. Play a solid range and play it aggressively. If they call too much, punish them for it.
 
This play money game plays a lot like my .25/.50 NLHE home game and with this strategy I am consistently winning. If I played this strategy on Ignition I would be crushed immediately!
Right, with online anonymous fast-fold games, GTO really is the only way. And you are just hoping you are playing "more optimally" than the rest of the room to realize profit.

What I was describing was very much an exploitive play where you can identify opponents and put refined ranges on them while taking advantage of the fact these opponents are not showing an ability to do the same thing the other way.
 

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