How poorly did I play this hand?

JMC9389

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Messages
4,992
Reaction score
7,603
Location
NJ
Some background first:

I'm big blind (TAG table image) with 100 or so BB's in my stack.

UTG (TAG player that likes to lead out when he has something, but on tilt at that time) folds

UTG+1 (LAG player with the highest stack by far, about 300 BB) limps

Button (The embodiment of a 30something Old Man Coffee, very tight passive) folds

SB (tight passive) Limps

I look down at Q5 of clubs, which is about par for the course of hands I've been seeing on the night, and decide to see the flop for free.

Board comes 2 3 Q rainbow.

SB bets half pot, I call, UTG +1 calls.

Turn comes another queen. SB bets 3/4 pot, I double the 3/4 pot bet. Both UTG +1 and SB flat call.

Now, at this point, I figure that one of them has the last queen, but I have no idea what the other has.

River yields the King of spades. No flush draws. No straight draws.

SB bets pot.

I go in the tank, and this is what I'm thinking. My guess is SB has the queen or else he wouldn't be betting so high. Does UTG have a pocket pair of Kings, 2's, or 3's? I eliminate that possibilty as I think that UTG+1 would have raised preflop if he had a pocket pair, especially Kings. He's not afraid to raise his premium hands preflop.

As far as the queens go, I figure my 5 kicker won't factor, as UTG or SB either both have me beat with boats or one has three Queens as I do and the other a king that make a high two pair.

I decide after a minute of tanking to call. UTG + 1 calls and shows AQ and SB shows pocket Jacks.

I had made the miscalculation that the other player with the queen could have very easily had me outkicked, and that's exactly what happened.

As the armchair QB the next morning, I think last to act, I should have folded seeing SB call the initial pot bet. Odds are I was either outkicked on the queens or someone made a boat.
 
Last edited:

Rhodeman77

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
6,892
Reaction score
15,388
Location
Cleveland
have to fold by the river, there is no way you beat both players.

I don't mind the call on the flop, but I am planning on folding to further aggression. This is win a small pot/lose a big pot situation.
Turn, you now have trips but it doesn't stop UTG from betting again, red flags should be going off in you mind about your kicker problem! Especially when there is a call. I am not looking to min raise ever here. A call is loose enough, I'm can see making a crying call since if you catch a 5 you will have the nuts and can most likely get both of them to pay you off! I can see an underfull and a big Queen from both spots.
River-- you miss your boat, the board didn't pair one of the small cards to give you Q's full either, there is another bet and call, easy fold now.
 

Thomacetti

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2014
Messages
3,692
Reaction score
6,422
Location
Belgium
Turn comes another queen. UTG bets 3/4 pot, SB flats again, and I double the 3/4 pot bet. Both UTG +1 and SB flat.

3-ways you just call here and create a 'cheap' way out if river doesn't give you boat or 4th queen
Your kicker sucks (on this board).
 

jeff123

Pair
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
165
Reaction score
82
Location
California
I probably don’t make that raise on the turn. I probably just flat. And if action is same on river I probably fold after sb snap calls the river pot bet. Would be player dependent.

I think with the way you played it til the river you have to fold after sb snap calls on river. It’s just too likely that one of them has you beat.
 

Windwalker

Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2020
Messages
2,409
Reaction score
14,718
Location
Gotham City
I look down at Q5 of clubs, which is about par for the course of hands I've been seeing on the night, and decide to see the flop for free.

Board comes 2 3 Q rainbow.

SB bets half pot, I call, UTG +1 calls.

It’s a hard fold to do on the flop, given the board, but I have a rule that’s served me well when I’m way out of position, and have a semi garbage hand like this one, facing a bet from someone in an even worse position:

If the flop doesn’t hit you in 2 places, FOLD.

Here, it hit you in 1. By the rule, automatic fold.
 

Forty4

Full House
Tourney Director
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
3,980
Reaction score
3,839
Location
Rochester, NY
I’ve been floating this idea in my head for a few days now. We all agree that it’s a check being that your in the BB and unraised. You hit top pair on the flop so a call is okay but leading to trouble as you can see. I think by the river even though you’ve made three of a kind there are hands that can beat you.
But back to the original thought how would you have played this if you looked down at AA in the BB? Many people get tricky and just check. But even if you did raise and then lead out the flop does JJ and/or AQ come along? Do you take the same line of a check raise on the flop? Not really looking for answers because everyone has their own style of play but it’s an exercise for you to evaluate how this hand played out. Even with AA the difference is you may go broke after you back yourself into a corner with a turn bet. Also I’ve fallen victim to similar situations but it’s questioning situations that helps evaluate your game.
 

JMC9389

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Messages
4,992
Reaction score
7,603
Location
NJ
Thank you everyone for your feedback. My Monday morning quarterbacking seems to be in line with a alot of what you are all suggesting.

Checking off in the big blind to see a flop for free with two suited cards is never a bad thing, but gives away that my hand isn't so strong, either. Flopping top pair, I'll call just about any bet. Going multiway into the turn had me a bit nervous about the other holdings though.

Even with turning trips, it's a very tough laydown to make on a totally rainbow board even with a generally tight player betting into me. Having UTG +1 call and go mutltiways to the river should have been the warning sign. I should have folded the river seeing the ridiculous line SB was taking. I figured him to be the one with the last queen in the deck if anything and not UTG + 1 who is a bit more loose, but would have the discipline to fold if he sees me call SB's bet with anything less than the 2nd best hand.

SB really took a bad line with a high two pair. I was equally enough a donkey to call that river bet.
 

TheDuke

Straight
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2017
Messages
825
Reaction score
1,432
Location
Edmonton
This is a weird hand as the SB and UTG+1 are not playing as per description (nit and lag). Nit is doing all the betting and the lagtard is just calling.

After both players call your turn raise it's safe to assume you're beat at least in 1 spot. And once the SB leads out again on the river it's hard to find a spot where you're ahead.
 

Josh Kifer

Royal Flush
Site Vendor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2017
Messages
11,826
Reaction score
26,964
Location
PNW
I agree. Honestly. I wouldn't have been in the hand that long. I probably fold this hand on the turn due to it being multi way. If its heads up its a different story.
Yup.
 

DrStrange

Full House
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
4,785
Reaction score
8,344
Location
Outlet Mall in San Marcos
It would be far more instructive to discuss each decision street by street than having to swallow the whole thing in one gulp. More honest advice is to be had as well. It is easy to make all the right moves when the results are already know.

Preflop - can't fault checking in the big blind.

Flop - fold. Hero has top pair, no kicker. In general this sort of hand is a huge reverse implied odds trap. In specific, the small bid is described as tight, passive. With what sorts of hands would Hero expect such a villain to be leading out? An under-pair? middle or bottom pair?

Also, I can't help but look at the shabby "prize" people will be fighting over. This is a six bb limped pot. In my mind it is OK to let someone outplay me and steal this pot. If somehow the small blind has a thin streak of crafty thief in her / him, fine, steal my blind.

Well, it was only 3 bb so Hero calls. Getting the call from UTG +1 is nothing but bad news. We have the passive guy betting and the LAG gal calling. Someone has a better queen. maybe both of them have a better queen.

Turn - fold. Pairing the queen is no help even if it feels good, Hero has second best almost always. Six outs to a chop. Three outs to win. And those are the best case, rarely Hero is in even worse shape vs a baby set turn full house. The raise is spew - the villain with the queen is not folding for the same reason hero feels like raising.

River - fold. Hero only beats Q4. Every other queen X combo is a winner.

I think hero should be taking careful notes. The passive small blind isn't passive post flop for sure. And is sticky as hell. Limps from the small blind with pocket jacks is certainly passive, but the bet, bet-call, BET??? line with an under-pair vs two players is 100% lag.

As for the "LAG" in utg+1 . . . . . AQo is roughly a top 5% hand. Raiseable in early position playing full ring. That is a really big hand on a very short table. And yet, our LAG doesn't raise / bet even once. Open limps preflop and then calls it down.

I wonder if hero didn't get his villains mixed up? SB as a LAG and UTG+1 as a tight passive. That fits the facts from this hand a whole lot better.

Face-trash is nothing but trouble outside of heads up play. Hero will lose far more chips than he win with such a hand. fold those suckers and get on to the next hand. -=- DrStrange
 
Top Bottom