Cash Game How many buy-ins should I have at 1/2 (1 Viewer)

[manamongkids]

I want to start grinding more seriously. NH poker rooms are 40 mins away, there are some local raked games, and Foxwoods/Mohegan is 2hrs away. I want to set aside a bankroll for just playing 1/2 NL cash.

Assumed the max buy-in is between 200-300 for most of these games. How many buy-ins should I have.

I would consider myself a TAG player, who supremely tries to play in position as often as possible.

 

[jbutler]

The traditional advice is 30 buyins at a game that plays semi-normally (i.e., no double straddle with a rock and guys going in blind once an orbit, etc.).

However, I'll parrot Limon's advice because I think it's correct. If you have a job that pays well enough that you can dick around with a few hundred bucks a week (or even every two weeks or every month) and poker is no more than incidental income, then you really do not need a bankroll. The original concept of quantifying a bankroll needed to play in a certain game was to hedge against a player's risk of ruin. Since you have no risk of ruin, there's no need to hedge by playing within circumscribed limits based on the amount of liquid cash available at any given moment.

That said, I know some people for themselves or as an agreement with their partner self-impose bankroll requirements. Even if you're a winning player, it's not a terrible idea to do something like this if for no other purpose than to be able to say to one's significant other that the chips you just bought were actually bought with poker money, not with household money. Of course, that argument only really holds water if the poker roll itself was not drawn from household money.

 

[MegaTon44]

For a TAG player, I would say 2500BB for NL (for LAG, perhaps more). $5,000 may seem excessive, but I've seen players do much less and they end up putting 20% of their bankroll on the table every time they play, which is not preferable.

If you are consistent, maybe low as 10 buy-ins ($3000, or 1500BB), but I wouldn't go much lower than that.

 

[manamongkids]

The traditional advice is 30 buyins at a game that plays semi-normally (i.e., no double straddle with a rock and guys going in blind once an orbit, etc.).

However, I'll parrot Limon's advice because I think it's correct. If you have a job that pays well enough that you can dick around with a few hundred bucks a week (or even every two weeks or every month) and poker is no more than incidental income, then you really do not need a bankroll. The original concept of quantifying a bankroll needed to play in a certain game was to hedge against a player's risk of ruin. Since you have no risk of ruin, there's no need to hedge by playing within circumscribed limits based on the amount of liquid cash available at any given moment.

That said, I know some people for themselves or as an agreement with their partner self-impose bankroll requirements. Even if you're a winning player, it's not a terrible idea to do something like this if for no other purpose than to be able to say to one's significant other that the chips you just bought were actually bought with poker money, not with household money. Of course, that argument only really holds water if the poker roll itself was not drawn from household money.

Hmm, great advice. Obviously I do have a full-time job, and this venture is nothing more than doing what I enjoy to do, and thinking I have a chance to make a few bucks.

 

[jbutler]

Hmm, great advice. Obviously I do have a full-time job, and this venture is nothing more than doing what I enjoy to do, and thinking I have a chance to make a few bucks.

Right, I didn't actually mean you with regard to the "if you have a job" comment - just speaking generally.

Limon's other thought when discussing this topic was interesting and it was that players who work full time apart from poker are actually in much better positions to move up in limits than players playing full time for a living due to the fact that non-professionals can simply replenish the bankroll and it's really no big loss whereas professionals have to do their best to guarantee that they stay in action.

This - in addition to the generally better game strategy training taken advantage of by kids of a certain era - is likely why so many of the giant online nosebleed winners were very young. They had basically nothing to lose. They were working at Subway and living with their parents last month, so why not take that one score and try to run it up playing $200/400 PLO and so on and so on. Whereas if I binked tourney for $400k I'd pull the money out and actually improve some elements of my life.

 

[bentax1978]

As a side topic, is there a specific recommended bankroll ones needs to start playing Dramaha professionally?

 

[abby99]

As a side topic, is there a specific recommended bankroll ones needs start playing Dramaha professionally?

Eleventy billion dollars at a minimum. Double that and you could also play pot-limit Badugi.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I want to start grinding more seriously. NH poker rooms are 40 mins away, there are some local raked games, and Foxwoods/Mohegan is 2hrs away. I want to set aside a bankroll for just playing 1/2 NL cash.

Assumed the max buy-in is between 200-300 for most of these games. How many buy-ins should I have.

I would consider myself a TAG player, who supremely tries to play in position as often as possible.

How much more "seriously"? I can't imagine the rake structure is very favorable in the NH rooms, which seem to be your closest option. Add on 80 minutes of commuting to play and the time you "spend" there, plus gas, tolls, wear & tear on your vehicle, etc. and playing 1/2 NL seems to become -EV over the long-term I'd imagine.

 

[DrStrange]

Is this a loss limit or a risk of ruin question? As others have noted, casual players don't normally have a risk of ruin issue playing 1-2 or 1-3.

If you are keeping records, you'll know how you are doing as a grinder. If you have a reasonable job, you can reload from your entertainment money. So keep a bankroll for fun or to keep peace in the house or even to make yourself feel good, but you don't need a bankroll like a "professional" does.

DrStrange

 

[jbutler]

How much more "seriously"? I can't imagine the rake structure is very favorable in the NH rooms, which seem to be your closest option. Add on 80 minutes of commuting to play and the time you "spend" there, plus gas, tolls, wear & tear on your vehicle, etc. and playing 1/2 NL seems to become -EV over the long-term I'd imagine.

Unless you're terrible, it's certainly not -EV over the long term.

If we assume: Andrew's car gets 23 mpg, he's traveling 80 miles round trip, gas is $2 per gallon (rounded quite a bit up), AAA's 5.1 cents maintenance per mile is accurate, and add in an eyeballed estimate of $3 each way for tolls (not researching, so just using my NJ tolls on the 60 mile stretch from my house to Borgata), his round trip cost should be barely over $17.

His hourly should be somewhere in that vicinity at $1/2 NL imo so assuming he's playing several hours sessions, he's more than okay.

 

[manamongkids]

Unless you're terrible, it's certainly not -EV over the long term.

If we assume: Andrew's car gets 23 mpg, he's traveling 80 miles round trip, gas is $2 per gallon (rounded quite a bit up), AAA's 5.1 cents maintenance per mile is accurate, and add in an eyeballed estimate of $3 each way for tolls (not researching, so just using my NJ tolls on the 60 mile stretch from my house to Borgata), his round trip cost should be barely over $17.

His hourly should be somewhere in that vicinity at $1/2 NL imo so assuming he's playing several hours sessions, he's more than okay.

Please keep in mind, I will be driving a Mercedez Unimog Diesel at 3mpg. I should probably just stay home

 

[jbutler]

Please keep in mind, I will be driving a Mercedez Unimog Diesel at 3mpg. I should probably just stay home

If you're looking to get 70 MPGs, I think we could work out a trade.

 

[bentax1978]

Please keep in mind, I will be driving a Mercedez Unimog Diesel at 3mpg. I should probably just stay home

You need to "upgrade" to a VW TDIs on the cheap now that their used value has been screwed by the recent scandal. I managed 48 mpg on the way to BBotB and 45 on the way home (y) :thumbsup:

 

[MillyS]

Noob question, what does TAG and LAG stand for?

 

[abby99]

Noob question, what does TAG and LAG stand for?

Tight AGressive
Loose AGressive

 

[Mojo1312]

Noob question, what does TAG and LAG stand for?

Talented and Gifted, Lively and Generous

 

[Mental Nomad]

If you have a regular job and can afford to reload the bankroll if you tap out, my answer is: three.

You should have three buy-ins when you first set out to play.

Since it's low stakes and you're not unemployed if you lose your bankroll, you don't need more to play. I wouldn't head out with less, because that's a long drive home if you start with a bad run.

If you're a winning player, the bankroll will grow. The real question will become: how big before you can take money out, or move up in stakes?

If the bankroll doesn't grow... then you're not a winning player, and there was never a bankroll big enough to protect you from variance.

 

[jja412]

So, the more interesting question is, how much bankroll to bring to a meatup, assuming you want to stay for the entire duration, and factoring in the variance of playing circus games??

 

[Anthony Martino]

Unless you're terrible, it's certainly not -EV over the long term.

If we assume: Andrew's car gets 23 mpg, he's traveling 80 miles round trip, gas is $2 per gallon (rounded quite a bit up), AAA's 5.1 cents maintenance per mile is accurate, and add in an eyeballed estimate of $3 each way for tolls (not researching, so just using my NJ tolls on the 60 mile stretch from my house to Borgata), his round trip cost should be barely over $17.

His hourly should be somewhere in that vicinity at $1/2 NL imo so assuming he's playing several hours sessions, he's more than okay.

It really will depend on the rake structure, game selection, time of day he is playing etc.

Yeah he could make $15-20\hr or it could be more like $10

 

[jbutler]

It really will depend on the rake structure, game selection, time of day he is playing etc.

Yeah he could make $15-20\hr or it could be more like $10

In other words even at your lowest estimate he is +EV if he plays 1.71 hours.

And yes, your hourly will depend on all those things you mention and much more, but if you're not hitting well over $10/hr over a significant sample at $1/2, your problems extend well beyond commuting costs.

 

[Anthony Martino]

In other words even at your lowest estimate he is +EV if he plays 1.71 hours.

.

If you consider his time is worth only $10/hr then I guess it's +EV. For me that wouldn't be worth it as a supplemental source of income is what I'm trying to get at.

 

[ACE'S FULL]

If you consider his time is worth only $10/hr then I guess it's +EV. For me that wouldn't be worth it as a supplemental source of income is what I'm trying to get at.

Guess it depends if you are grinding to pay the rent or just looking to have fun/be entertained.

 

[jbutler]

If you consider his time is worth only $10/hr then I guess it's +EV. For me that wouldn't be worth it as a supplemental source of income is what I'm trying to get at.

Got it. So when you said -EV you meant +EV but not +EV enough.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Got it. So when you said -EV you meant +EV but not +EV enough.

I meant -EV in the sense that depending on the rake structure, available game selection, hours he's able to play per session or week, etc. that the return he could see may not be +EV in relation to the worth of his time.

I guess I should've been clearer, not saying he can't turn a profit at all, just that there are some situations that the possible profit is so low you'd be better off delivering newspapers, if your goal is to make supplemental income on top of your regular job.

 

[krafticus]

So, the more interesting question is, how much bankroll to bring to a meatup, assuming you want to stay for the entire duration, and factoring in the variance of playing circus games??

1-meeelion dollars..

 

[bentax1978]

So, the more interesting question is, how much bankroll to bring to a meatup, assuming you want to stay for the entire duration, and factoring in the variance of playing circus games??

I think a lot of that depends on the particular meet-up and how you intend to play. The answer realistically ranges from a few hundred dollars if you're going to be super conservative (and potentially run the risk of going busto) to many thousands of dollars (which actually only lowers, not eliminates, the risk of going busto).

 

[jja412]

I think a lot of that depends on the particular meet-up and how you intend to play. The answer realistically ranges from a few hundred dollars if you're going to be super conservative (and potentially run the risk of going busto) to many thousands of dollars (which actually only lowers, not eliminates, the risk of going busto).

 

[bentax1978]

Remember, I said it also depends on the particular meetup. My viewpoint might be slightly skewed after playing at BBotB this past weekend.

 

[manamongkids]

I think a lot of that depends on the particular meet-up and how you intend to play. The answer realistically ranges from a few hundred dollars if you're going to be super conservative (and potentially run the risk of going busto) to many thousands of dollars (which actually only lowers, not eliminates, the risk of going busto).

Depends on the meet-up tbh. This is your first meet-up, right @bentax1978? like a full main event with cash games? From what Ive gathered over my 3 or 4 years on the forums is that the NH/MA contingent games play a lot larger than other meet-ups. And that in no way shape or form is a knock of other meet-ups, and they might often have big stacks or see their share of huge pots, but my guess is that for the stakes played at bergs .25/.50 you will not see pots as big, as often.

People like @courage @jbutler or @H|Q will be able to speak about it because I know they have attended meet-ups in other areas

 

[bentax1978]

Depends on the meet-up tbh. This is your first meet-up, right @bentax1978? like a full main event with cash games? From what Ive gathered over my 3 or 4 years on the forums is that the NH/MA contingent games play larger than other meet-ups

I basically posted that caveat while you were typing (See post above)

This was actually my second PCF meet-up (third if you count the CT days). The SQ Melee cash games in Flordia didn't play quite as large as BBotB, but it also didn't play like your typical 0.25/0.50 game either.