Tourney How is this Structure and Stacks? (1 Viewer)

[namsupak]

We are looking at a single 10 Person Tourney. No Rebuys. No dealer Add on. We are considering this for the starting stacks:

8 x T25
8 x T100
4 x T500
7 x T1000
------------------
27 Chips
T10,000

My Question is if we wanted to give people deeper stacks just for fun, could we run this:

12 x T25
12 x T100
7 x T500
10 x T1000
------------------
41 Chips
T15,000

Our Total Bank is
160 x T25
160 x T100
80 x T500
160 x T1000
40 x T5000
Total Chips 600
Total Bank 420,000

Here is the 25 min Blind Structure that BG had suggested and looks pretty good:

lvl sb bb
L1 25 50
L2 25 75
L3 50 100
L4 75 150
L5 100 200
L6 150 300
remove T25 chips
L7 200 400
L8 300 600
L9 400 800
L10 600 1200
L11 800 1600
L12 1000 2000
L13 1500 3000
remove T100/T500 chips
L14 2000 4000
L15 3000 6000
L16 4000 8000 ***
L17 6000 12000
L18 8000 16000
remove T1000 chips
L19 10000 20000
L20 15000 30000

Anyhow, what do you guys think of pumping the starting stacks up? And will we still have enough for color ups, etc.

 

[JustinInMN]

All looks good. I slightly prefer doing 12 25s and 12 100s whether you do T10k or T15k.

In the case of 10k it rould be 12-12-7-5.

Structure looks good to me too

And yes you have plenty for color ups. For 10 players, even at 12 greens and 12 blacks per player, you are just removing T3000 in green (6 purples), then T12000 in black (12 yellows).

 

[andy699669]

All looks good. I slightly prefer doing 12 25s and 12 100s whether you do T10k or T15k.

In the case of 10k it rould be 12-12-7-5.

Structure looks good to me too

And yes you have plenty for color ups. For 10 players, even at 12 greens and 12 blacks per player, you are just removing T3000 in green (6 purples), then T12000 in black (12 yellows).

More than enough, in fact. Removing T3000 in Greens can be done with the remaining 30 Blacks/T100 and later to remove T15000 in Blacks, you can use 10 each of Purples and Yellows, the purples are used for chip race-offs whilst the Yellows are probably not.

 

[justsomedude]

I think the structure looks great.

For starting stacks I prefer 12/12/5/7 for T10ks, as it's a little more "standard." The T15k sounds like fun, just remember that you may run a little bit longer with more chips in play.

 

[andy699669]

I think the structure looks great.

For starting stacks I prefer 12/12/5/7 for T10ks, as it's a little more "standard." The T15k sounds like fun, just remember that you may run a little bit longer with more chips in play.

I thought you were meant 12-12-5-6 as your said stack would be 11K, not 10K.

 

[justsomedude]

I thought you were meant 12-12-5-6 as your said stack would be 11K, not 10K.

Yes! That is what i meant. Good catch!

 

[BGinGA]

Total Bank is
160 x T25
160 x T100
80 x T500
160 x T1000
40 x T5000

You can do the following 10-player no-rebuy tournaments using your 600-chip set:

10K starting stacks:
12 x T25
12 x T100
5 x T500
6 x T1000

15K starting stacks:
12 x T25
12 x T100
5 x T500
11 x T1000 (or 6x T1000 and 1x T5000)

20K, 25K or 30K starting stacks:
12 x T25
12 x T100
5 x T500
11 x T1000
T5000 x 1, 2, or 3 (20K, 25K or 30K)

For maximum efficiency, your 600-chip set can also support these large 10-player 35K starting stacks:
16 x T25
16 x T100
8 x T500
14 x T1000
3 x T5000
----------------
57 chips = T35000 stacks, with adequate numbers of extra T1000 and T5000 chips for color-ups. In fact, this breakdown will use every single chip in the set except for just 2x T5000, which is about as full-utilization as you will ever get.

In all cases, use T1000 chips to color-up the T25 and T100 chips, and use T5000 chips to color-up the T500 chips when required.


Using the blind structure you posted above, the maximum 10-player tourney times (plus breaks) are based on blind level times and stack sizes shown below:

25-minute blind levels
10K stacks -- L14, or 5:30
15K stacks -- L15, or 6:15
20K stacks -- L16, or 6:30
25K stacks -- L16, or 6:45
30K stacks -- L17, or 7:00
35K stacks -- L18, or 7:15

20-minute blind levels
10K stacks -- L14, or 4:30
15K stacks -- L15, or 5:00
20K stacks -- L16, or 5:10
25K stacks -- L16, or 5:20
30K stacks -- L17, or 5:40
35K stacks -- L18, or 6:00

15-minute blind levels
10K stacks -- L14, or 3:30
15K stacks -- L15, or 3:40
20K stacks -- L16, or 3:50
25K stacks -- L16, or 4:00
30K stacks -- L17, or 4:15
35K stacks -- L18, or 4:30

That particular blind structure along with your specific 600-chip set is a very flexible combination. The chart above can be used to create 10-player tournaments with stacks ranging in size from 200BB to 700BB, and lasting from 3-1/2 hours to well over 7 hours (plus breaks).

For 10 players, even at 12 greens and 12 blacks per player, you are just removing T3000 in green (6 purples)

Removing T3000 in Greens can be done with the remaining 30 Blacks/T100 and later to remove T15000 in Blacks, you can use 10 each of Purples and Yellows, the purples are used for chip race-offs whilst the Yellows are probably not.

For several reasons, those above-referenced color-up practices represent a very inefficient use of chips and tournament chip management. I strongly recommend against adding any chips for color-ups that will later also need to be removed (T100 or T500), as it merely adds a lot of chips that add little value to the playability of the set in play. Alternatively, higher-denomination chips (T1000, T5000) can easily be used to replace the smaller denominations, and those chips will remain in play for the duration of the event -- since they will also be needed as work-horse chips in later rounds.

It is also the reason that I prefer 12/12/5/6 starting stacks vs 12/12/7/5 (or 12/12/5/11 vs 12/12/7/10) -- those extra T500s are not needed, and the extra T1000s in play will be used for the entire duration of the event. Adding even more T100s or T500s afterwards -- neither of which are ever needed -- is a sub-optimal practice that can easily be avoided by using T1000s and T5000s for all color-ups.

 

[andy699669]

You can do the following 10-player no-rebuy tournaments using your 600-chip set:

10K starting stacks:
12 x T25
12 x T100
5 x T500
6 x T1000

15K starting stacks:
12 x T25
12 x T100
5 x T500
11 x T1000 (or 6x T1000 and 1x T5000)

20K, 25K or 30K starting stacks:
12 x T25
12 x T100
5 x T500
11 x T1000
T5000 x 1, 2, or 3 (20K, 25K or 30K)

For maximum efficiency, your 600-chip set can also support these large 10-player 35K starting stacks:
16 x T25
16 x T100
8 x T500
14 x T1000
3 x T5000
----------------
57 chips = T35000 stacks, with adequate numbers of extra T1000 and T5000 chips for color-ups. In fact, this breakdown will use every single chip in the set except for just 2x T5000, which is about as full-utilization as you will ever get.

In all cases, use T1000 chips to color-up the T25 and T100 chips, and use T5000 chips to color-up the T500 chips when required.


Using the blind structure you posted above, the maximum 10-player tourney times (plus breaks) are based on blind level times and stack sizes shown below:

25-minute blind levels
10K stacks -- L14, or 5:30
15K stacks -- L15, or 6:15
20K stacks -- L16, or 6:30
25K stacks -- L16, or 6:45
30K stacks -- L17, or 7:00
35K stacks -- L18, or 7:15

20-minute blind levels
10K stacks -- L14, or 4:30
15K stacks -- L15, or 5:00
20K stacks -- L16, or 5:10
25K stacks -- L16, or 5:20
30K stacks -- L17, or 5:40
35K stacks -- L18, or 6:00

15-minute blind levels
10K stacks -- L14, or 3:30
15K stacks -- L15, or 3:40
20K stacks -- L16, or 3:50
25K stacks -- L16, or 4:00
30K stacks -- L17, or 4:15
35K stacks -- L18, or 4:30

That particular blind structure along with your specific 600-chip set is a very flexible combination. The chart above can be used to create 10-player tournaments with stacks ranging in size from 200BB to 700BB, and lasting from 3-1/2 hours to well over 7 hours (plus breaks).




For several reasons, those above-referenced color-up practices represent a very inefficient use of chips and tournament chip management. I strongly recommend against adding any chips for color-ups that will later also need to be removed (T100 or T500), as it merely adds a lot of chips that add little value to the playability of the set in play. Alternatively, higher-denomination chips (T1000, T5000) can easily be used to replace the smaller denominations, and those chips will remain in play for the duration of the event -- since they will also be needed as work-horse chips in later rounds.

It is also the reason that I prefer 12/12/5/6 starting stacks vs 12/12/7/5 (or 12/12/5/11 vs 12/12/7/10) -- those extra T500s are not needed, and the extra T1000s in play will be used for the entire duration of the event. Adding even more T100s or T500s afterwards -- neither of which are ever needed -- is a sub-optimal practice that can easily be avoided by using T1000s and T5000s for all color-ups.

The problem is, how does the chip-race is done for T25 if the colour-up for it is T500? A lot of cards would be needed - one card each for extra T25, and no one is eliminated from chip-race. Anyone who only has Greens remaining like, T225, gets a T500 chip and the remaining 5 T500 chips are for the chip race.

Can you please explain in a graphical presentation so I can understand better?

 

[BGinGA]

The TD takes a T1000 chip to the table to color-up the T25 chips. He exchanges it with the big stack for 10 x T100 chips, which are used to purchase 4xT25 chip lots (players can sell their T25 chips to the big stack to make this process faster, but it's not required).

Any excess T25 chips remaining (1, 2, or 3 per player) are either rounded up or raced off like usual, using the T100 chips -- except that those T100s were exchanged from the big stack, instead of being added to the table by the TD.

A single T1000 will color-up/remove up to 40 x T25 chips. If more than that are on the table, then add more T1000 chips to cover their value.

A single 10-player table with 12/12/5/6 stacks has 120 x T25 chips in play, and requires exactly three T1000 chips to replace them all.

T100 and T500 chips should never be added to be used for color-ups.

 

[andy699669]

The TD takes a T1000 chip to the table to color-up the T25 chips. He exchanges it with the big stack for 10 x T100 chips, which are used to purchase 4xT25 chip lots (players can sell their T25 chips to the big stack to make this process faster, but it's not required).

Any excess T25 chips remaining (1, 2, or 3 per player) are either rounded up or raced off like usual, using the T100 chips -- except that those T100s were exchanged from the big stack, instead of being added to the table by the TD.

A single T1000 will color-up/remove up to 40 x T25 chips. If more than that are on the table, then add more T1000 chips to cover their value.

A single 10-player table with 12/12/5/6 stacks has 120 x T25 chips in play, and requires exactly three T1000 chips to replace them all.

T100 and T500 chips should never be added to be used for color-ups.

So, the BigStack Bully is the colour-up's core, right?

 

[JustinInMN]

I agree with @bginba and it makes sense to just introduce 1k, chips.

Typically I only have short 1 table tourneys that don't even require two color ups, so I typically only color up by two denoms. (25 to 500), but I may try BG's approach next time.

But usually, I just have the players add enough black chips to their greens in 100 quantities to make a purple or yellow. Then I award the race winners using the extra black chips I picked up from rounding to purple or black. So what you accomplish is a full removal of green and a net decrease in black.

But in general, after coloring up 25s, 100 become the blind chips, there's no reason to add more.

 

[BGinGA]

So, the BigStack Bully is the colour-up's core, right?

Yep - just buy what color-up/race-off/round-up chips you need from whoever has the most of 'em on the table, using high denom chips.... and then business as usual.

 

[namsupak]

The TD takes a T1000 chip to the table to color-up the T25 chips. He exchanges it with the big stack for 10 x T100 chips, which are used to purchase 4xT25 chip lots (players can sell their T25 chips to the big stack to make this process faster, but it's not required).

Any excess T25 chips remaining (1, 2, or 3 per player) are either rounded up or raced off like usual, using the T100 chips -- except that those T100s were exchanged from the big stack, instead of being added to the table by the TD.

A single T1000 will color-up/remove up to 40 x T25 chips. If more than that are on the table, then add more T1000 chips to cover their value.

A single 10-player table with 12/12/5/6 stacks has 120 x T25 chips in play, and requires exactly three T1000 chips to replace them all.

T100 and T500 chips should never be added to be used for color-ups.

We actually played the tourney this weekend and I messed up on this. I actually just exchanged the T25 chips for the T100 chips from outside of the game, when I should have changed with the big stack as you outlined above, OOPS.

 

[DoubleEagle]

We actually played the tourney this weekend and I messed up on this. I actually just exchanged the T25 chips for the T100 chips from outside of the game, when I should have changed with the big stack as you outlined above, OOPS.

Your structure is almost identical to what we use on out weekly three table event, except we don't use the 25/75 level. Stacks are always 8/8/4/7. However, we do use 20 minute levels. Our tourneys take right at 4 1/2 hours each week, running from 7:30 to 12:00.

With about 2 minutes remaining before the end of level three and the $25 color-up, we announce that one player from each table should buy up the $25's. Works very well.

 

[Kid_Eastwood]

Anyhow, what do you guys think of pumping the starting stacks up?

To increase the game, I'd not start by adding more chips to the starting stack.

STT with 10K on blinds 25-50 is 200BB, already really nice if you have a nice progressive structure.

To improve game I'd :
- Increase level duration (e.g. 30 min) and / or ;
- Add intermediate levels :

125-250
250-500
1200-2400
2500-5000
12000-24000

This would improve your game more than
if you only increase starting chips.

Problem with just increasing starting stack is that first level will become less important and you'll just postpone for a level or two the moment where shove fest will start.

But of course, all depends on the desired tournament duration.

 

[JustinInMN]

With about 2 minutes remaining before the end of level three and the $25 color-up, we announce that one player from each table should buy up the $25's. Works very well.

This is what the tds do at Canterbury Park (my local club) they hand a rack to the big stack and has that player but everything up and rack the chips, put in extras to make a quantity of 1k or 2k.