How Did I Play My Aces?

jr8719

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Important to note that this was a freeroll tournament, so play is understandably loose; however, unlimited rebuys within the first two hours make it a really nice prize pool by the end of the night. Starting stacks are 20,000 or £10 gets you 40,000, with blinds starting at 100/100; for the second week in a row, I get dealt pocket Kings on the first hand of the night, turning my 20,000 into about 30,000 when I hit a set.

I don't see another flop for another hour because I'm dealt absolute trash... until I look down at :ad::ah: in the BB with 400/800 blinds and an 800 button ante. Four people limp around to me, meaning there's 4,800 in the pot when the action comes to me.

I choose to raise to 6,000 total; standard 3X raise (2,400) + 800 for each limper (3,200)... give or take another 400. At this point, I'm either looking to pick up the dead money, narrow it down to heads-up... or induce a three-bet from someone who was trying to potentially trap by limping.

Women to my left says "this smells like Aces or Kings" to me, before calling the 6,000; small blind also calls the 6,000, taking the pot up to just over 20,000. My stack size is about 21,000; the other two players at about 30,000.

Flop comes: :td::8d::2s:

What's your next move in this spot?
 

CantSpellPoker

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DrStrange

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Hero's stack is almost the same as the pot size. In a cash game, this is automatic. Maybe not quite so automatic in a tournament, but in this case it is an easy decision.

There is a cherry on top - holding the ace of diamonds on a diamond draw board. In the first place that is a blocker to one of nine outs vs a flush draw. In the second place hero has a seven out redraw if the flush comes in. This is worth something like 5% extra equity!

Hero should jam and be happy. The preflop action assures hero a long term +ev situation. No one can out play hero, all they can do is put their money in bad and hope for luck o save them.

Problem is, we often lose the hand while having +ev. Sucks doesn't it -=- DrStrange
 

upNdown

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I jamming here too, though I’m not thrilled with it three ways.
Not that it matters too much here, but did you really need to make it 6k preflop? Is there anything that 6k accomplishes that 4800 wouldn’t have accomplished?
 

DrStrange

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Betting 6,000 vs 4,800 means that each villain is making a 1,200 chip bigger mistake. Also it means that Hero has less post-flop stress as the SPR gets smaller.

Let's not get bogged down in a discussion of "bloated" pots. Hero's stack is shallow and isn't going to face multi street decision points post flop. This situation is simple, hero can't make a mistake. Hero should be thrilled as poker doesn't get any easier than this. Not saying hero wins or loses, just the math is solid justification for how to best play the hand.

Thought exercise:
What would we think if Hero jammed with his aces preflop and got called by two players? Is that a good outcome? Was the pot bloated?

What would we think of Hero limping his aces preflop? Should he then be looking for a safe way to fold post flop facing three way action?

Can we reach a conclusion about bet sizing here? i.e. is bigger better than smaller with the same number of callers?
 

upNdown

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Betting 6,000 vs 4,800 means that each villain is making a 1,200 chip bigger mistake. Also it means that Hero has less post-flop stress as the SPR gets smaller.

Let's not get bogged down in a discussion of "bloated" pots. Hero's stack is shallow and isn't going to face multi street decision points post flop. This situation is simple, hero can't make a mistake. Hero should be thrilled as poker doesn't get any easier than this. Not saying hero wins or loses, just the math is solid justification for how to best play the hand.

Thought exercise:
What would we think if Hero jammed with his aces preflop and got called by two players? Is that a good outcome? Was the pot bloated?

What would we think of Hero limping his aces preflop? Should he then be looking for a safe way to fold post flop facing three way action?

Can we reach a conclusion about bet sizing here? i.e. is bigger better than smaller with the same number of callers?
I think you’re totally correct on all points in this case. I was just thinking about preflop raise amounts in other situations, but yeah, that’s irrelevant.
 

jr8719

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I think you’re totally correct on all points in this case. I was just thinking about preflop raise amounts in other situations, but yeah, that’s irrelevant.
My thinking with 6,000 is that I know the play on the table is loose enough to warrant a call, so may as well extract maximum value.

In hindsight, jamming the flop was my play.

As it was, I make my first mistake and bet 10,000. She calls, small blind folds. At this point, I'm thinking she is flushing and might have AJ, KJ or possibly QJ.

Turn comes :qd:

Not the best card, not the worst. With about 10,000 left in my stack, what's my move here?
 

justsomedude

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I would've bet more pre.... at least 3x what's in the pot *when it gets to you*... so min. bet of 12,000. A jam wouldn't have been out of line either given your stack size.

Given the circumstances, I jam that flop every day of the week, and twice on Sundays.
 
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Kidd32

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At this point you have to put 11k to win 40, the Q doesn’t change much, there is 0% J9 in vilain’s range, few ppQ.

Space Jam
 

upNdown

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At this point you have to put 11k to win 40, the Q doesn’t change much, there is 0% J9 in vilain’s range, few ppQ.

Space Jam
Zero percent? Have you played in cheapo tournaments?
Against two opponents who called the 10k flop bet and who both have him covered? Although they could literally have anything in a tournament like this, I honestly think it’s a waste of time to try to range them at this point. If he’s not already beaten by a flush, or a set or a stupid two pair, or that unlikely J9, he probably will be, by the river.
I say hit the brakes. I don’t think your last 10k is scaring anybody off a 50k pot. Obviously you’re going to showdown one way or the other, but if you can make it there with your last 10k still on your side of the betting line, do that.
And pray for a diamond.
 

jr8719

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Zero percent? Have you played in cheapo tournaments?
Against two opponents who called the 10k flop bet and who both have him covered? Although they could literally have anything in a tournament like this, I honestly think it’s a waste of time to try to range them at this point. If he’s not already beaten by a flush, or a set or a stupid two pair, or that unlikely J9, he probably will be, by the river.
I say hit the brakes. I don’t think your last 10k is scaring anybody off a 50k pot. Obviously you’re going to showdown one way or the other, but if you can make it there with your last 10k still on your side of the betting line, do that.
And pray for a diamond.
Yeah, unfortunately in tournaments like this there is a 100% chance that anyone could be holding literally any two cards at any time — in any pot.

I should have checked the turn, for sure, but I just jammed and said: "I'd you've got the flush, there's not much I can do."

I figure I can hit a diamond and maybe, just maybe an Ace to beat two pair combos.

She replies: "I don't have the flush. Call."

She turns over, almost apologetically, yep, you've guessed it: :js::9s:

River is a brick and we go home — just in time to catch the second half of Liverpool vs West Ham.
 

BGinGA

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J9 suited doesn't call a pre-flop jam, just sayin'. And so much the better if they do.

And the proper jam speech there was, "If you've got the ace-high flush, there's not much I can do." But instead, you essentially told her that her straight was winning.
 

jr8719

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J9 suited doesn't call a pre-flop jam, just sayin'. And so much the better if they do.

And the proper jam speech there was, "If you've got the ace-high flush, there's not much I can do." But instead, you essentially told her that her straight was winning.
The worrying thing is she might have called the pre-flop jam with J9, ha! But like you said, more fool her if she did.

You're right... But my thinking with the speech was the whole reverse psychology thing; wanted to dupe her into thinking I had the flush, I guess.

Alas, not much is getting her to fold 10k in that spot.
 

Frogzilla

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Pre sizing is good in general especially if we are deep, but stack at 35bb is shallow enough that we can jam here over that many limpers.

Flop you’re in a really awkward stack depth and I’m never building a range around 1/2 pot that leaves 1/4 pot behind on turn. I probably have just a jam range, but a super light 5k bet to set up some turn play is tempting. AA with the backdoor is easily included in both.
 

Steve Birrer

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Well I am not any good so don't listen to me.

But dude betting 10K post flop (half your stack) is just dumb. You leave yourself no bet on the turn other than check or jam. If you are afraid you don't have the best hand then you should have checked post flop. You could walk away from the hand then with still 21K stack. As it is now you can't really walk away with only 11K left as you only have 12bb left which is an auto shove with anything. And you won't have anything better than AA so freaking get your chips in the middle.
 
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If the goal was to pick up dead money or get heads-up from the start, I’d have just shoved. Avoid awkward decisions, stack, and pot sizes post-flop.
 

Legend5555

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I see some people would like a jam preflop.

My argument for not doing so is this:

A lot of recs view an all in as much stronger than another sized bet. Especially if the all in means they will be all in. They will call super wide pre for even oversized pot preflop bets like this one though. So, I like the oversized bet that has a higher chance of getting incorrect, loose calls since the SPR post makes decisions super easy. Plus, I doubt most of these players would fold any flopped top pair or overpair. But they might find a fold to a shove pre. I think we win more money long term by not shoving pre. Yes, it means we run more risk, but it's also much more reward. Of course, I wouldn't have expected everyone to call the raise like happened here.

*Edited for bad phone typing.*
 
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jr8719

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I mean, Aces karma has just paid off for me, so I'm pretty happy.

Currently in another tournament and raise UTG with Aces... Get two all ins in middle and late position... Then reshove to try and get a call from the initial early caller, who folds.

Flop comes Ace, Ace, Rag... Insta quads and some redemption for Monday.
 
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