How bad was this play?

legonick

Two Pair
Joined
Apr 24, 2020
Messages
489
Reaction score
330
Location
NH
Warning - I didn't record the data for this hand, so it's going to be fuzzy! Everything is estimates etc.

8-handed freeze-out. 5 people left, hero is 2nd in chips pretty close to a tie with 3rd, 1 huge stack, 1 with a chip and a chair, and 1 with small stack.

Hero is on BB. UTG (2nd in chips) folds, CO (chip and chair) folds, buttons min-raises, SB calls. Hero looks down at AKo. Raises to ~4x BB. Button re-pops to ~8x BB. SB folds. Hero shoves with ~15x BB total. Button asks for a count but states "he's calling". He knows hero's been playing nitty, and hero knows he's pretty LAG. Button turns over 66. Flop, turn, river, nadda on the coin flip, hero busts 5th.

My reasoning was, he could be making that play with a smaller A, and worst-case I'm flipping.

In my mind, it was a pivotal moment - I either shove hoping for a fold or a suck-out/flip-win and go deep with those chips, or fold and pretty much fold everything to limp into the money. And fold AK pre-flop...against this LAG...not sure I could ever pull the trigger on that. BUT...he did re-raise my raise...so maybe it kind of would have made some sense? 1-3 pays in this tournament. I guess I could call his 4x BB raise and pray for an A or K?

WWYD?
 
Last edited:

davislane

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2020
Messages
4,874
Reaction score
5,560
Location
Sydney, Australia
If you started the hand with 15bb I'm shoving over the min click from the button or flatting. You 4x the BB so you basically min clicked back. After he min clicks back you cant fold. Not sure shoving achieves much as you have already missed the opportunity to maximize your fold equity but calling seems really nitty to just flat there and leaves yourself with 7bb. Depends on how many BBs everyone else is playing. The fact you were 2nd in chips with 15bb suggests you were playing some sort of turbo tournament. When you get down to these short stacks the game is pretty straightforward. I suggest reading up on some tourney strategy around these spots.

https://upswingpoker.com/push-fold-tournament-strategy-charts/
 

Legend5555

Full House
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
2,768
Reaction score
3,695
Location
Georgia
If you only have 15bb, then your only play pre with AK is to jam regardless of the action. The only time you should do something other than jam with this stack (with any hand you seem playable) is if you are on the button and the blinds are either too tight or under money pressure and you have them covered, or if you have specifically AA in which case you can opt to play a trap if you are closing the action pre and the pot will be heads up.

This is none of those situations. A decent rule of thumb is that pre flop if the current pot + bets + calls is 15-20% of your stack, you should just be jamming if you are going to play the hand.
 

Frogzilla

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2017
Messages
3,184
Reaction score
4,642
Location
Frisco, TX
What did the payout structure look like? If you’re on the bubble it’s fine to flat here, especially if CO is forced to be all-in in only two hands.

But generally yes it’s super standard to get 15bb in pre with AK BU v BB
 

grebe

Flush
Joined
Nov 3, 2019
Messages
1,125
Reaction score
1,614
Location
Richmond, VA
Warning - I didn't record the data for this hand, so it's going to be fuzzy! Everything is estimates etc.

8-handed freeze-out. 5 people left, hero is 2nd in chips pretty close to a tie with 3rd, 1 huge stack, 1 with a chip and a chair, and 1 with small stack.

Hero is on BB. UTG (2nd in chips) folds, CO (chip and chair) folds, buttons min-raises, SB calls. Hero looks down at AKo. Raises to ~4x BB. Button re-pops to ~8x BB. SB folds. Hero shoves with ~15x BB total. Button asks for a count but states "he's calling". He knows hero's been playing nitty, and hero knows he's pretty LAG. Button turns over 66. Flop, turn, river, nadda on the coin flip, hero busts 5th.

My reasoning was, he could be making that play with a smaller A, and worst-case I'm flipping.

In my mind, it was a pivotal moment - I either shove hoping for a fold or a suck-out/flip-win and go deep with those chips, or fold and pretty much fold everything to limp into the money. And fold AK pre-flop...against this LAG...not sure I could ever pull the trigger on that. BUT...he did re-raise my raise...so maybe it kind of would have made some sense? 1-3 pays in this tournament. I guess I could call his 4x BB raise and pray for an A or K?

WWYD?
I would have open shoved, but this is straight up standard play. 15BB's? I would shove here with much less than a monster like AKo.
 

upNdown

Royal Flush
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
12,317
Reaction score
15,592
Location
boston
I probably would have flatted to the min-raise.
You started the hand with 15 or 16 bb - that’s not insignificant. We don’t have all the details of some important factors, and push fold charts are useful, but to my way of thinking, you’ve still got some time and maybe some play left in that stack - no need to jam an unmade hand into a raise at this point.
But FWIW, I think you played this about as badly as possible. I think flatting, folding, and jamming are all better options than the 2x 3-bet. AND, folding to his 4-bet and walking away with 11 bigs to fight another day is probably still better than flipping for stacks when you’re almost certainly behind.

TL;DR - In second place with 15 bigs, you didn’t need to flip. In tournaments, situations matter more than cards.
 

CoachBudKilmer

Sitting Out
Joined
May 29, 2021
Messages
42
Reaction score
37
Location
Smyrna, GA
This is a pretty straightforward shove on his min-raise. And 6's are (should be) folding to it every time. They are flipping against overcards and crushed by overpairs; they are worse than 50% equity against your shove range. A rough ICM calculation has them at 24% equity if they lose the flip, 42% if they win, 33% if they fold. It's super close that they should call even if they knew you had AK.
 

Beakertwang

Straight Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
May 22, 2018
Messages
9,968
Reaction score
14,793
Location
Iowa
Unless the button is an ultra-nit who will only raise there with ultra premium hands, I’m jamming there without hesitation. On the money bubble, I might flat to see a cheap flop, but a double up in this spot is super significant.
 

legonick

Two Pair
Joined
Apr 24, 2020
Messages
489
Reaction score
330
Location
NH
What did the payout structure look like? If you’re on the bubble it’s fine to flat here, especially if CO is forced to be all-in in only two hands.

But generally yes it’s super standard to get 15bb in pre with AK BU v BB
50%/30%/20% of 8x$15. It's not a high-stakes tournament, just a friendly recreational game. Not much money at play, but I do like to ladder up for league ranking reasons. Still, I thought if I could take down the hand against the big stack I'd be in a good spot to make a run for the whole thing.


I probably would have flatted to the min-raise.
You started the hand with 15 or 16 bb - that’s not insignificant. We don’t have all the details of some important factors, and push fold charts are useful, but to my way of thinking, you’ve still got some time and maybe some play left in that stack - no need to jam an unmade hand into a raise at this point.
But FWIW, I think you played this about as badly as possible. I think flatting, folding, and jamming are all better options than the 2x 3-bet. AND, folding to his 4-bet and walking away with 11 bigs to fight another day is probably still better than flipping for stacks when you’re almost certainly behind.

TL;DR - In second place with 15 bigs, you didn’t need to flip. In tournaments, situations matter more than cards.
Yeah, the 3rd place guy made a comment from all the action - "don't we just want to bust the short stacks?" - and that haunts me. But I was angling for a deep run, not a money-limp.



How would opinions change if the big LAG had called instead of raised pre-flop? Is a 4x BB better there, or should that still be a shove, or even a limp and pray for AK (eww)?
 

legonick

Two Pair
Joined
Apr 24, 2020
Messages
489
Reaction score
330
Location
NH
This is a pretty straightforward shove on his min-raise. And 6's are (should be) folding to it every time. They are flipping against overcards and crushed by overpairs; they are worse than 50% equity against your shove range. A rough ICM calculation has them at 24% equity if they lose the flip, 42% if they win, 33% if they fold. It's super close that they should call even if they knew you had AK.

Yeah, I was surprised by his call there...maybe he has a really good read on me? I thought for sure he would have been afraid of over pairs as I think AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, and probably more I would have played the same way.
 

CoachBudKilmer

Sitting Out
Joined
May 29, 2021
Messages
42
Reaction score
37
Location
Smyrna, GA
Yeah, I was surprised by his call there...maybe he has a really good read on me? I thought for sure he would have been afraid of over pairs as I think AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, and probably more I would have played the same way.
I mean, you should have shoved over his initial open, and then he'd be correct to fold to that 3-bet. I don't think he can fold to your shove as played if you have any unpaired hands in your range (7 BB to call for a total of 31.5 BB).
Yeah, the 3rd place guy made a comment from all the action - "don't we just want to bust the short stacks?" - and that haunts me. But I was angling for a deep run, not a money-limp.



How would opinions change if the big LAG had called instead of raised pre-flop? Is a 4x BB better there, or should that still be a shove, or even a limp and pray for AK (eww)?
For small stakes amongst friends, I get it, but that comment is basically collusion. That's one you don't say out loud.

If he limps, 3-4 BB is good. I like the idea of shoving practically any flop since you're out of position.
 

legonick

Two Pair
Joined
Apr 24, 2020
Messages
489
Reaction score
330
Location
NH
I mean, you should have shoved over his initial open, and then he'd be correct to fold to that 3-bet. I don't think he can fold to your shove as played if you have any unpaired hands in your range (7 BB to call for a total of 31.5 BB).

For small stakes amongst friends, I get it, but that comment is basically collusion. That's one you don't say out loud.

If he limps, 3-4 BB is good. I like the idea of shoving practically any flop since you're out of position.

Yeah, the unspoken rule in tournies, at leat where laddering up is a big deal.
 
Top Bottom