HORSE Vs. Circus Games (1 Viewer)

BarrieJ3

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It's damn near impossible to get games going around here, despite that when we actually organize them, everyone has a blast. We finally got enough guys committed for a table + tonight, and after Bill's meetup MiM, I can't sit there all night playing hold em.

So my question is, for a group of mixed guys (occasional hold em players to true degens), what's the easiest way to throw them in the deep end? Is HORSE just a tried and true rotation that most people enjoy? I felt like a lineup containing games like Omaha, Omaha 3-2-1, SOHE, some type of Pineapple variation, maybe double board hold em would be a little more likely to get people involved. Any thoughts on enlightening tonight's players to a whole new world?
 
I think round after round of Omaha and Holdem is a nice and predictable beginner pattern.., it gives the hold em guys a chance to just fold every other round (until they start to UP THE GAMBOL)

Or just tossing in a couple of variations of pineapple is always a nice way to ease in Hold em players...
 
If you want to amp it up a bit depending on how many players you have. You can always make PLO and PLO8 a 5 card game.
 
Then set a timer. Every 30 minutes you play one hand of Double Board Omaha. High on both boards wins half the pot.
 
For hold'em players (including me), stud games are too much of a jump. We played some O8 which got mixed reviews, but double board pineapple was a ton of fun!
 
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I recommend starting with HOPES

NLHE
PLO
Crazy Pineapple
PLO8
SOHE

play r x r

I disagree that big bet games are the best way to introduce new games to a hesitant group.
If someone finally agrees to play a new game and gets hosed (which just about every player new to a game will) because they aren't familiar with the game they sure as hell aren't going to agree to play it again.

Start with new games as limit. Minimal damage, maximum enjoyment.
 
I disagree that big bet games are the best way to introduce new games to a hesitant group.
If someone finally agrees to play a new game and gets hosed (which just about every player new to a game will) because they aren't familiar with the game they sure as hell aren't going to agree to play it again.

Start with new games as limit. Minimal damage, maximum enjoyment.
I disagree that big bet games are the best way to introduce new games to a hesitant group.
If someone finally agrees to play a new game and gets hosed (which just about every player new to a game will) because they aren't familiar with the game they sure as hell aren't going to agree to play it again.

Start with new games as limit. Minimal damage, maximum enjoyment.
I know this will get me killed, but I was trying to think of how to use games like this (which in my mind gamblers may love more than poker players) and maybe just play them at lower stakes then we usually would. Gives people a chance to learn them, maybe lose a smaller buyin then normal, and if they enjoy it we can go back to our normal stakes/stacks by nights end.
 
Play HOPES as a spread limit game. You can play pot limit, bit cap the max betting to something that won't "hurt". My circus games frequently see pots in excess of $700 and a rookie would get crushed.

Or play limit, but not everyone loves limit.
 
I disagree that big bet games are the best way to introduce new games to a hesitant group.
If someone finally agrees to play a new game and gets hosed (which just about every player new to a game will) because they aren't familiar with the game they sure as hell aren't going to agree to play it again.

Start with new games as limit. Minimal damage, maximum enjoyment.
This is what we did. Also, split pot games also limit losses, and increase engagement. I find limit hi/lo and double board limit games to be more fun and social.
 
I think the biggest transition is learning omaha first. Requiring the use of two cards throws hold em players off initially
 
I think the biggest transition is learning omaha first. Requiring the use of two cards throws hold em players off initially
I think this is why my group took to Pineapple variants.
 
I disagree that big bet games are the best way to introduce new games to a hesitant group.
If someone finally agrees to play a new game and gets hosed (which just about every player new to a game will) because they aren't familiar with the game they sure as hell aren't going to agree to play it again.

Start with new games as limit. Minimal damage, maximum enjoyment.

Playing mixed games limit is a completely different strategy than playing pot limit. I would rather adjust the stakes/buy ins than teach new games with limit betting.
 
Or use a "tourney" method to teach mixed games. I did this with @Lil Tuna We put x amount of money in the pot. I gave us each $300 bucks. We played heads up dealers choice with 1/1 blinds. After about 20 minutes we raised it to a 1/2 game, then 2/4 until one of us one. It was a great way to learn at low stakes and get a bunch of hands in.
 
Play HOPES as a spread limit game. You can play pot limit, bit cap the max betting to something that won't "hurt". My circus games frequently see pots in excess of $700 and a rookie would get crushed.

Or play limit, but not everyone loves limit.

I hear this a lot, but it seems to me that every time we spread limit mixed games people just enjoy poker more.

It seem like a lot of guys think of limit poker like riding they do riding a moped/scooter - it's a lot of fun but they don't want their friend to see them doing it.
 
My neighbor played a x10 buyin game recently. You buy in for $20 and get $200. Still fun and low stakes.

Every time a buy in becomes more for the sake of a better chipped game a @BGinGA gets his wings.... lol BG has been a proponent of chipping up like this for as long as o have been reading his posts. It’s a great idea and can solve many problems like not having the right chips for a game (no fracs or something) or people not having the money to play higher when the games just aren’t as fun at “lower” stakes. I’ve done it a few times and showed other hosts and it’s always well received once people understand why they are getting $100 in chips for $25 cash.
 
I personally think Hi-Lo and SOHE are too much for people just getting their feet wet. My recommendation would be something like HOP (HoldEm, PL Omaha and Crazy Pineapple). From my experience if the stakes are moderate (say 25/50 cent blinds with a $60 buy in) a game of newer but enthusiastic poker players will have fun and continue to show up. If a guy quits because he lost $60 he probably wasn't going to be a long term player anyway. The sweet spot IMO is interesting stakes but not crushing stakes.
 
Our group used to be all Hold’em all the time. I was able to slowly introduce new games into the mix. We started first by adding Omaha 8 and crazy pineapple. Since these are flop games the transition for the hold'em players wasn't as great as some of the other circus games. Next we added Big O to make our current four game mix of dealers choice. Omaha 8 and Big O are now played the most. I would like to try to add Draw2maha next. We shall see. Take it slow and chances are they will come around.
 
This was extremely helpful and I did go through the mentioned post. I’ve been look through the tourney/home game posts, was thinking of maybe just doing a turbo of hold em to get them loose? Thoughts on yay or nay for this?

Looks like it’ll just be a single table with 8ish guys.
 
Same here, our group was nearly 100% No-Limit Hold'em players, with a couple of Omaha and older Stud players. Today, it's a wide variety of games, including more circus games than you can play in a single session...... and while Hold'em still gets requested and dealt, the players now embrace and enjoy all of the other poker variants.

So how did we get there? I took a systematic approach, using a structured tournament format that provided a relatively low fixed financial risk:
  • Introduce 3-card flop games. Started out with three No-Limit Pineapple variations (regular, Crazy, and Lazy (Tahoe). Close enough to Hold'em to not scare off people, while introducing strategy points that required players to deal with the extra possibilities that having more than two hole cards creates.
  • Introduce Fixed-Limit stakes poker, low-card games, and split-pot games. We started with HORSE, which also introduced Omaha and three Stud variations, later playing Omaha Hi/Lo, Razz, and Stud8 as stand-alone Fixed-Limit games along with Badugi. This phase helped players develop the concepts of drawing games and pot-odds beyond that of simple HLHE.
  • Introduce Pot-Limit games. We started playing Hold'em, the Pineapple variants, and Omaha using a pot-limit structure, which introduced the big-bet component and further developed betting strategies associated with pot odds and drawing hands.
All this led to the creation of one of our more popular leagues, HORS -- rotating NLHE, PLO8, Razz, and Stud8 tournaments (3 each), with a freeroll Championship game that featured alternating orbits of all four games. The HORS final game format still remains popular.

Then we started introducing Fixed-Limit circus games, beginning with those that had close ties to games already played and familiar:
  • SOHE, Big O, and SuperHold'em were all easy transitions. In today's world, I would also include 2-Hand Hold'em and 3-Hand Hold'em in this group of transition games.
  • Once those games were accepted, we moved to playing them as pot-limit. By that time, players were comfortable enough with the games and with pot-limit play that the transition was relatively easy and not overly painful.
  • Adding expanded pot-limit versions of those games was easy: Lazy Pineapple Hi/Lo, Ludicrous Pineapple, Double-board Omaha, Super-Hold'em Hi/Lo, 3-Hand Hold'em Hi/Lo, Inverse Omaha8, etc. met with little resistence.
We later added more complex games, such as Scrotum, Scrotum8, PLOcean8, Dramaha, Shodugi, Scarney, Razzaho, etc.to the mix.

Tournaments, fixed-limit cash, and micro-stakes cash games (played with either very low denomination cash-value chips or 1/10th to 1/20th of actual value chips) all work well as tools to introduce Hold'em players to other types of poker.

But imo, the real keys to success are to provide an environment where they cannot get financially destroyed, and to introduce new concepts and games at a pace at which they can be understood, absorbed, and embraced. Baptism by fire often results in players never returning or refusing to play in future games.
 
Personally, I would avoid lo/8 games as the low still totally confuses me.
 

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