Tourney Home Razz Tourney Structure

aaronroch

Pair
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
162
Reaction score
157
Location
Rochester, NY
I’m hosting a short Razz mini-tourney next week. I’ve been reading the little I can find online and on here about tourney structure for 7-stud and Razz, but some of the info is conflicting.

Looking for a suggested structure and hopefully some understanding about what works vs. doesn’t.

7-8 players.
Target play time 2.5 hours (this is just low-stakes exploring the game, we want time for a cash game after.)
Available chip set: T5x300; T25x300; T100x150; T500x50.

My players get quite nitty toward the end of any tourney.
My players have no problems promptly posting individual antes.

What I’m struggling to understand is how to approach the antes. I apologize in advance for all the questions!

How much should the ante be relative to the bet sizes (i.e. vs the small or big bet)? I’ve seen wildly different recommendations on this, but much of the advice is for mixed game tourneys and I’m not clear if that makes a critical difference.

Given that my players aren’t slow to post individual antes, what are the other virtues of a button ante?

If using individual antes, should I increase them relative to the bets as we get short-handed to keep enough “dead” money going into the pot?

Thank you all for passing on your wisdom!
 

aaronroch

Pair
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
162
Reaction score
157
Location
Rochester, NY
Okay, so 4 days on with no replies means that was obviously too many questions at once. :p

How does this look?

Small-stakes “fun” mini-tourney.
7 nitty players. 1,500 starting stacks.

Individual antes b/c players have never heard of a table ante and b/c of the big jumps between levels.

Level. Ante/bring/small bet/big bet

1. 5/5/25/50
2. 10/10/50/100
3. 25/25/100/200
4. 50/50/200/400
5. 100/100/300/600
6. 200/200/500/1,000
7. 300/300/800/1,500

30 min levels until we get short-handed, then progressively faster.
Expect game end @ level 6.

I increased the relative antes in levels 5+ to drive more dead money into the pot as the table gets smaller.

Thoughts? Terrible vs. not-terrible?
 

DaneWoj

Pair
Joined
Jan 27, 2016
Messages
156
Reaction score
105
Location
Waukesha
if there’s a tie for the bring in card, for simplify sake just do the first high card off the deck.

Generally limit games end when the average big bet is 5. So level 6 sounds abt right. The only change I’d do is remove level 1 and make a 100/100/400/800 level. Makes for more meaningful levels early and slows down the progression late.
 

aaronroch

Pair
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
162
Reaction score
157
Location
Rochester, NY
DanWoj, thanks for the input! I’m torn about the first level: I very much see your point but in the other hand for 7 first-time Razz players a first level that is almost practice is kinda’ appealing...

@BGinGA could you glance at my proposed schedule and let me know if you see anything that really needs fixing? Other than what DanWoj already called out? Thanks!
 

honkydevil

3 of a Kind
Joined
Mar 14, 2016
Messages
558
Reaction score
589
Location
Hinckley MN
What’s a normal starting stack size in limit/razz relative to blinds? I know you can make it whatever you want but if you’re used to 100bb starting stacks in NLH what is similar to that? I see you have 30 big bets.
 

aaronroch

Pair
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
162
Reaction score
157
Location
Rochester, NY
What’s a normal starting stack size in limit/razz relative to blinds? I know you can make it whatever you want but if you’re used to 100bb starting stacks in NLH what is similar to that? I see you have 30 big bets.
That’s a good question.
2 months ago we played a 7-stud tourney with starting stacks of 50 big bets and the first round felt really small. And the tourney ran long.

Whether that’s because you can’t 3-bet or go over the top in limit or because we’re just playing too nitty I can’t tell. We had very few rounds where the betting was capped (i.e. 3 raises).

Since my progression is already very aggressive I resorted to starting with what I think are very short stacks (30 BB).

I may just need to remind myself that any 2.5-3 hour tourney is going to be something of a crapshoot no matter what...
 

DaneWoj

Pair
Joined
Jan 27, 2016
Messages
156
Reaction score
105
Location
Waukesha
In stud there is less playable starting hands. So it will play slower just due to the nature of the game.

Razz you can get more playable starting hands. But more is very relative. It’s not like comparing NLHE to plo.
 

APatHand

3 of a Kind
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Messages
540
Reaction score
586
Location
Bryan, TX
Make it 'Action Razz'.

Played like regular Razz, but there is a showdown face card (K,Q,J) qualifier among the seven cards in the player holds.
Hence, (J 9 [8 6 3 2 A]) beats (7 2 [5 4 3 2 A]) because the second hand doesn't meet the face card qualifier even though it has a better 5-card low.
In the case of no qualifying hand, the pot goes to the 7-card hand with the highest card (ace is low, of course).

This qualifier gets hands like [A 3] K into the action - hence, Action Razz.
 

aaronroch

Pair
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2019
Messages
162
Reaction score
157
Location
Rochester, NY
Is anyone making book on the odds of you ever holding a second all-Razz night? :cool
Lol! Those are probably long odds. :)

My actual goal is to work folks up to a HORSE tournament without them quite realizing it.

Everyone had enough fun with the 7-stud tournament last time that they were excited about trying Razz, so I’m hopeful...
 

APatHand

3 of a Kind
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Messages
540
Reaction score
586
Location
Bryan, TX
Make it 'Action Razz'.

Played like regular Razz, but there is a showdown face card (K,Q,J) qualifier among the seven cards in the player holds.
Hence, (J 9 [8 6 3 2 A]) beats (7 2 [5 4 3 2 A]) because the second hand doesn't meet the face card qualifier even though it has a better 5-card low.
In the case of no qualifying hand, the pot goes to the 7-card hand with the highest card (ace is low, of course).

This qualifier gets hands like [A 3] K into the action - hence, Action Razz.
I should mention that for most of the players I see, having a K in the door does nothing to discourage participation in a hand, anyway. :tup:
 

Shaggy

Flush
Joined
Nov 5, 2014
Messages
2,354
Reaction score
2,707
Location
Riverside, CA, USA
@23slam hosts a Razz tourney event as part of one of his leagues. Nice and smooth. It follows one of the WSOP structures. I don't recall the duration of levels nor the starting stacks. Its been a while since he's been on here... let's see if he chimes in.
 

Kid_Eastwood

Straight
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Messages
988
Reaction score
791
Location
BE
Maybe this can be a starting point to define the structure : https://www.wsop.com/pdfs/structuresheets/structure_1622_17447.pdf

If you use T5, then make the starting stack as 2400 on starting limits 40-80 with a 20 bring-in and

I think 30 bets is neither short nor deep.

Regarding the ante, it seems like the total ante is in the middle of the small and big bet. For simplicity I’d make the total ante = big bet.

So in your case, I'd try sth like this if you don't want ante button :
T2400
Ante / Bring In / Limits
10 / 20 / 40-80
15 / 30 / 60-120
20 / 40 / 80-160
30 / 60 / 120-240
== color-up T5 ==
50 / 75 / 150-300
50 / 100 / 200-400
75 / 150 / 300-600
...

But to make it easy, I'd use an ante-button with ante button value = big bet :

T1200
Ante B / Bring In / Small Bet / Big Bet
40 / 10 / 20-40
60 / 15 / 30-60
80 / 20 / 40-80
120 / 30 / 60-120
160 / 40 / 80-160
== color-up T5 ==
200 / 50 / 100-200
300 / 75 / 150-300
400 / 100 / 200-400
600 / 150 / 300-600
== color-up T25 ==
...
 
Last edited:

Pinball

Flush
Joined
Dec 19, 2014
Messages
1,370
Reaction score
776
Location
Eggenwil / Switzerland
5​
5​
15​
30​
5​
5​
20​
40​
10​
10​
30​
60​
10​
10​
40​
80​
20​
20​
60​
120​
20​
20​
80​
160​
40​
40​
100​
200​
40​
40​
120​
240​
40​
100​
160​
320​
100​
100​
200​
400​
 

Pinball

Flush
Joined
Dec 19, 2014
Messages
1,370
Reaction score
776
Location
Eggenwil / Switzerland
Make it 'Action Razz'.

Played like regular Razz, but there is a showdown face card (K,Q,J) qualifier among the seven cards in the player holds.
Hence, (J 9 [8 6 3 2 A]) beats (7 2 [5 4 3 2 A]) because the second hand doesn't meet the face card qualifier even though it has a better 5-card low.
In the case of no qualifying hand, the pot goes to the 7-card hand with the highest card (ace is low, of course).

This qualifier gets hands like [A 3] K into the action - hence, Action Razz.
Awful version of RAZZ :D
 

Kid_Eastwood

Straight
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Messages
988
Reaction score
791
Location
BE
I just saw that my figures were all messed in my previous structure. I’ve fixed them.
 
Last edited:

Forty4

Full House
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Messages
2,805
Reaction score
2,197
Location
Rochester, NY
Lol! Those are probably long odds. :)
Hopefully not. I’d welcome the opportunity to play something other than HE. But Razz can be an incredibly frustrating game to play. The joys of bricks on three streets to fill up when you have a player all in and basically dead. One can’t anticipate 2,3,2.
 

BGinGA

Royal Flush
Tourney Director
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
19,454
Reaction score
24,414
Location
Atlanta
I run Razz tournaments with T15000 stacks and re-buys that start with 100/200 betting rounds and a 25 ante/50 bring-in. That's 75 big bets, re-buys are rare, and it typically finishes in 3.5 to 4 hours using 20-minute levels.

I think 30 big bets is way too small for a tournament, players could go broke after only two crazy hands. Another thing I would change is the size of the bring-in relative to the ante -- I prefer at least 2x.

I'll look up the T25-base structure when I get home tonight. I also have a T5-base structure I used years ago; I'll hunt that one down, too.
 

BGinGA

Royal Flush
Tourney Director
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
19,454
Reaction score
24,414
Location
Atlanta
Regarding the ante, it seems like the total ante is in the middle of the small and big bet. For simplicity I’d make the total ante = big bet.

to make it easy, I'd use an ante-button with ante button value = big bet
No button in Razz, and it doesn't need one. Table antes work great in cash games, where there are no artificial inequities or increasing monetary/stack pressure, but it is ill-advised for tournament play.
 

BGinGA

Royal Flush
Tourney Director
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
19,454
Reaction score
24,414
Location
Atlanta
Make it 'Action Razz'.

Played like regular Razz, but there is a showdown face card (K,Q,J) qualifier among the seven cards in the player holds.
Hence, (J 9 [8 6 3 2 A]) beats (7 2 [5 4 3 2 A]) because the second hand doesn't meet the face card qualifier even though it has a better 5-card low.
In the case of no qualifying hand, the pot goes to the 7-card hand with the highest card (ace is low, of course).

This qualifier gets hands like [A 3] K into the action - hence, Action Razz.
Awful version of RAZZ :D
I've given @APatHand's version considerable thought, and plan on trying it as a support event for next year's NLHE league. I like the idea of how it expands the starting range, while also opening up another level of strategy during the hand. I think it will be a hit with the players.
 

Legend5555

Two Pair
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
303
Reaction score
251
Location
Georgia
In general, cash game stud antes are 1/10th to 1/6th the size of the small bet. And the bring in is 1/4th to 1/3rd the size of the small bet. In tournaments, the bring in tends to be larger (half the small bet) likely to induce action and exert extra pressure.
 

APatHand

3 of a Kind
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Messages
540
Reaction score
586
Location
Bryan, TX
As part of out mixed game rotation, we use a single ante designated by a dealer button, equal to the sum of the small and big blinds which we are using in blind games. So, when we are playing $10/$20 limit mix, with $5 and $10 blinds, we have a single player ante of $15 and a bring-in of $5, complete to $10.
When we play $5/$10 limit mix, with $2/$5 blinds, we go with a $10 single player ante with a $2 bring-in, complete to $5.

Yes, we could play $5/$10 with $2.50 and $5 blinds, a $7.50 single player ante, etc.
But we aren't (all) nits. We prefer playing to making a shitload of change (and we don't have a sufficient number of snappers.)
 

BGinGA

Royal Flush
Tourney Director
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
19,454
Reaction score
24,414
Location
Atlanta
As part of out mixed game rotation, we use a single ante designated by a dealer button, equal to the sum of the small and big blinds which we are using in blind games. So, when we are playing $10/$20 limit mix, with $5 and $10 blinds, we have a single player ante of $15 and a bring-in of $5, complete to $10.
When we play $5/$10 limit mix, with $2/$5 blinds, we go with a $10 single player ante with a $2 bring-in, complete to $5.

Yes, we could play $5/$10 with $2.50 and $5 blinds, a $7.50 single player ante, etc.
But we aren't (all) nits. We prefer playing to making a shitload of change (and we don't have a sufficient number of snappers.)
And that's how it should be done. For cash play. :tup:
 

Legend5555

Two Pair
Joined
Jul 15, 2019
Messages
303
Reaction score
251
Location
Georgia
As part of out mixed game rotation, we use a single ante designated by a dealer button, equal to the sum of the small and big blinds which we are using in blind games. So, when we are playing $10/$20 limit mix, with $5 and $10 blinds, we have a single player ante of $15 and a bring-in of $5, complete to $10.
When we play $5/$10 limit mix, with $2/$5 blinds, we go with a $10 single player ante with a $2 bring-in, complete to $5.

Yes, we could play $5/$10 with $2.50 and $5 blinds, a $7.50 single player ante, etc.
But we aren't (all) nits. We prefer playing to making a shitload of change (and we don't have a sufficient number of snappers.)
That is a very large ante for stud. Typically the sum of antes 8 handed is between 1 and 1.5 small bets.
 
Top Bottom