High hand drama at Tampa Hard Rock (1 Viewer)

[upNdown]

The issue is if your high hand for the bonus only counts the flop, so the turn and river don't count for the high hand bonus

Is that how it's worded? Or is it worded "Omaha players must flop their high hand?" Because there's a difference.

 

[Natskule]

Is that how it's worded? Or is it worded "Omaha players must flop their high hand?" Because there's a difference.

I should have said should. Have to ask @Anthony Martino for the actual wording.

 

[upNdown]

I should have said should. Have to ask @Anthony Martino for the actual wording.

Pretty sure he posted it at some point

 

[Natskule]

My point was on equitably between the NLHE tables and PLO tables.

7 cards vs first 7 cards, but 2 more that could make your hand ineligible

It gives the NLHE players an advantage for the bonus, but maybe the casino wants it that way.

 

[BarrieJ3]

But in this scenario, the high hand is only counted after the flop. So it is just the first 7 cards, that way the casino can combine the NLHE table with the PLO taable for the high hand bonus.

The issue is if your high hand for the bonus only counts the flop, so the turn and river don't count for the high hand bonus, whether it make your hand better or not. The turn and river shouldn't counterfeit a hand for the high hand bonus, it should be strictly on the first 7 cards. If they want to allow the turn and river to possibly make a better hand and invalidate a PLO hand, then 2 more card should be dealt on the NLHE to give those players the same possibility to counterfeit their hands.

The casino needs to make it equitable between the Omaha and Hold 'Em tables, or have two separate high hand bonuses for each games.

I gotcha. I'm just saying I don't really care if it doesn't help the casino at all. I'm not sure what "fair" even is, unless we're talking = chance between games to win the high hand. How does seeing flops change from game to game (PLO to hold em), how many hands from hold em make it to the river to possibly have the full amount of cards to have a high hand, etc. All of that needs to be churned and thought about if they're somehow trying to make the chances as even as possible between the two games to hit the high hand bonus.

7 cards vs 7 first cards may not make it equitable if the games are played differently. But then you say, we'll that's up to how the players play the game. But then the hold em players complain that it's not fair to them because everyone plays the two games differently, it's not just that they're being tight pre. Just some additional thoughts.

 

[upNdown]

It gives the NLHE players an advantage for the bonus, but maybe the casino wants it that way.

I'm not sure, does it? Because the HE player has to get through 3 streets of betting to see his 7th card. The PLO player only has to get through one street.
hmm

And I scrolled back - earlier he mentioned this

But they looked at the language of their rule and it mentions "best hand"

 

[Natskule]

I gotcha. I'm just saying I don't really care if it doesn't help the casino at all. I'm not sure what "fair" even is, unless we're talking = chance between games to win the high hand. How does seeing flops change from game to game (PLO to hold em), how many hands from hold em make it to the river to possibly have the full amount of cards to have a high hand, etc. All of that needs to be churned and thought about if they're somehow trying to make the chances as even as possible between the two games to hit the high hand bonus.

7 cards vs 7 first cards may not make it equitable if the games are played differently. But then you say, we'll that's up to how the players play the game. But then the hold em players complain that it's not fair to them because everyone plays the two games differently, it's not just that they're being tight pre. Just some additional thoughts.

Good points that I did not consider.

But then again I don't choose to play or where to play based on the high hand bonus or the bad beat jackpot, more concerned with the rake and the type of players in the game. But an interesting thread none the less.

 

[Marius L]

I think if the casino chooses to have a high hand bonus, it should be a positive thing for the players, and a fun added incentive, otherwise it doesn't make sense to have one. If the rule is worded in such a way that it will give players a bad taste in their mouths of being screwed over every once in a while, it completely misses the point and the rule should be changed.

I would say the casino is mislead at best here. To the players at the table, the high hand promotion just went from being a cool thing, to having to pay extra rake for possibly being screwed over, and having to employ ridiculous tactics to maximize value of the high hand bonus (which will again leave a bad taste because you can't try to play the hand optimally against your opponents)

Considering the ruling doesn't save the casino the $500 payout, it just gives them negative PR.

It is probably right that the wording is such and such, but that doesn't make the decision anymore right IMO. It's still a shitty ruling, and the wording should be changed. If they say it's not fair to the HE players, they should find a different way to sort that out. Probably by having two separate winners of smaller bonuses, or keep the same payout amount, but pay it out less frequently.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Good points that I did not consider.

But then again I don't choose to play or where to play based on the high hand bonus or the bad beat jackpot, more concerned with the rake and the type of players in the game. But an interesting thread none the less.

The BBJ represents a $2 rake out of every pot, on top of the $5 regular rake

I'd rather not have them take the $2 out and just remove us from the HH pool. But since they are going to take it out, at least don't fuck our chances of hitting it

 

[Anthony Martino]

Explain to me like I’m five how a kicker is at all relevant with quads? Four queens is four queens regardless if the kicker is a two or an ace. Kickers are only relevant when two hands are tied. There is no tie with quads, unless, in my example, there are three queens on the board and two players each have one of the remaining other two queens. In which case their kickers play and the table definitely needs a new deck and a new dealer.

At Hard Rock Tampa your high hand goes on a board and needs to hold up for that dealer down (30 minutes, or whatever time is left)

So you could have quad Aces with a Jack as the 5th card lose to quad Aces with a King, as an example

Since both hold em and PLO are 5-card games, they use your best 5 card hand

You do need to have a pair in your hand to qualify quads, so having AK in hold em and flopping AAA wouldn't qualify is my understanding

For the question asked previously about the wording of PLO needing to flop it, I haven't seen it, but will try to get a copy of their promo rules

 

[WedgeRock]

Stop playing there. Let the room manager know why you're leaving and not playing in his room anymore (not because of the rules, but more because you were told the rules were gonna change this month and they did not change)...

 

[Anthony Martino]

So playing there. Let the room manager know why you're leaving and not playing in his room anymore (not because of the rules, but more because you were told the rules were gonna change this month and they did not change)...

Lol, Tampa Hard Rock wouldn't give two fucks, and I kinda need to play there to keep my cats fed

 

[WedgeRock]

Lol, Tampa Hard Rock wouldn't give two fucks, and I kinda need to play there to keep my cats fed

I was kinda hoping that wasn't the case...that you didn't need to play work there.

They way they are gonna care is if they start losing money because of their rules... If they players aren't willing to play elsewhere, the casino isn't going to care how the Omaha players feel about the HHJ rake.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I was kinda hoping that wasn't the case...that you didn't need to play work there.

They only way they are gonna care is if they start losing money because of their rules... If they players aren't willing to play elsewhere, the casino isn't going to care how the Omaha players feel about the HHJ rake.

Yeah, aside from Mondays at Luckys, THR is the place for consistant PLO games

 

[WedgeRock]

Would Lucky's spread PLO more often if they got the players? Talk to the table (out loud for the dealer and floor to hear) about moving the game over there and see what the interest is... I realize you don't want to only move all the pros, you need the fish to come too, so it probably doesn't work, but expressing your dis-satisfaction and willingness to play at another room (and more importantly, pay the rake somewhere else) might get the casino to rethink it's policy.

Also, I think the rule has good intentions... I can't believe that they set out to screw PLO players. Obviously, they changed the rules for a legitimate reason. Maybe they are pulling more rake from HE than PLO and the HE crowd has a louder voice.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Would Lucky's spread PLO more often if they got the players? Talk to the table (out loud for the dealer and floor to hear) about moving the game over there and see what the interest is... I realize you don't want to only move all the pros, you need the fish to come too, so it probably doesn't work, but expressing your dis-satisfaction and willingness to play at another room (and more importantly, pay the rake somewhere else) might get the casino to rethink it's policy.

Also, I think the rule has good intentions... I can't believe that they set out to screw PLO players. Obviously, they changed the rules for a legitimate reason. Maybe they are pulling more rake from HE than PLO and the HE crowd has a louder voice.

last week on Wednesday Silks of all places got a great PLO game running

Since I live closest to there I talked to players. "Oh yeah, I'll be there"

Day comes, one guy shows, two are running late, no one else shows.

Poker players are a notoriously unreliable and fickle bunch, it's like herding cats.

 

[Hammer2171]

Plo has xx22

Flop 229

So his flopped hand is quad 2's with a 9 kicker

We HAVE to flop our high hand, we can't make it on the turn or river, so for high hand qualification the turn and river shouldn't be considered, imo

I agree, because he did flop a high hand, he didn't get in on the turn or river. He hit quads on the flop and should have been paid on that high hand. It shouldn't matter if the hand improves. If I had a straight flush on the flop and ended up getting a royal flush by the river card, I should still get paid out for whatever the straight flush high hand pays out. That's very chicken shit of a casino to do that.

 

[Nickamas]

Honestly it should just be the highest possible hand regardless of when it came out. Unfortunately that’s casinos for you.
When I was at the Hard Rock in DR they had a high hand promotion but it was the high hand for the entire night. (Small poker room) I flopped quad jacks and was told to come back the next morning to claim my money. They straight up told me there was not enough action last night so they are not paying it.
Also half way through my trip they started charging 5 dollars a drink ONLY in the poker room in a all inclusive resort. Never went back lol.

 

[HeresyReznor]

Having quads in PLO with a pair in your hand, the kicker is irrelevent unless someone else has the exact same quads during the promo. You cant have "better" quads because the kicker doesn't improve the hand vs yourself. Are you competing against your own hand? Complete nonsense, the cheap pricks just dont want to payout.

 

[HeresyReznor]

1. Your right if it is clearly stated in the rules as such than it is ruled on correctly.

2. From a fairness standpoint it doesn't holdup. It is a payout shared across games so the 7 cards in NLHE can be used against the first 7 cards in PLO. If a PLO hand can become unqualified on the turn and river than a NLHE hand should have to withstand conterfeiting with 2 more cards. The contest is not comparing PLO hands to NLHE hands, but the NLHE hand to the first 7 cards dealt in a PLO game.

IMO, without knowing the rules, the hand should qualify as Quad 2s with a 9 kicker, as I think that is within the spirit of the contest.

The kicker is irrelevent unless someone else makes the same quads during the promotion.

 

[BarrieJ3]

Are you competing against your own hand? Complete nonsense, the cheap pricks just dont want to payout.

Do they end up paying the actual high hand winner (PLO or Hold Em) less than what they would've paid the winner? Or is this assuming that the whole room won't have any qualifying hands that run, pockets the money, and resets the pot/rake for HH bonus?