Help with NLHE turn and river strategy

Jake14mw

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Hi all,

Been playing NLHE for a long time (mostly tournaments) with a casual home game group. It's mainly been a social thing for me, but I would like to try and improve my game. I have been watching some youtube videos, and I did a quick trial of Pokersnowie from a recommendation here. I think I understand pre-flop strategy pretty well, Pokersnowie pointed out to me that I play too many marginal hands (not surprising).

I think where my game is weakest is in the later rounds. I don't think I am good at recognizing what correct bet sizes are for given situations. I think there are times where I am betting amounts where only hands that will beat me will call my bets without realizing this. Any advice on youtube videos that might help me without being at an expert level? Many times I start watching one, but all the terminology is at too advanced of a level for me. Any suggestions? Thanks.
 

DrStrange

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Abstract advice isn't likely to prove helpful. A better path is to dissect a single hand at a time, one decision point at a time. This is not a fast process. It can and should take a couple of days to discuss what to do and why.

Find a hand that you found troublesome and post it as a strategy. Stack sizes can be estimated, but pretend you do remember exactly. Same thing with the bets. The more information about the villains, the better.

Have a thick skin, sometimes people can be a bit unforgiving. You will learn lots of stuff. And remember that good results does not mean well played, bad results do not imply a mistake.

Go get 'em tiger! -=- DrStrange
 

Rhodeman77

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I really like Bart Hanson's Crush Live Poker hand breakdowns on youtube.

I’ll second this! Bart is good at talking the average player level better than most.

I’d advise to watch as much poker as possible and really pay attention to the commentary More than the players. the good ones will know what will happen most of the time before it happens. I remember several years ago watching Antonio (the Magician) cover the final table live (15 minute delay) and we would only see the hole cards after the hands were over. He was spot on with ranges and bet sizing over and over again.

What used to take players many years to figure out can now be learned in a year or two with study and and honed with a enough hands.
 

Beakertwang

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I’ll second this! Bart is good at talking the average player level better than most.

I’d advise to watch as much poker as possible and really pay attention to the commentary More than the players. the good ones will know what will happen most of the time before it happens. I remember several years ago watching Antonio (the Magician) cover the final table live (15 minute delay) and we would only see the hole cards after the hands were over. He was spot on with ranges and bet sizing over and over again.

What used to take players many years to figure out can now be learned in a year or two with study and and honed with a enough hands.
I especially appreciate that the callers range from high level players, all the way down to players learning to think about poker in a different way. Bart asks tough questions and challenges incorrect thinking without being insulting or condescending.
 

Jake14mw

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I’ll second this! Bart is good at talking the average player level better than most.

I’d advise to watch as much poker as possible and really pay attention to the commentary More than the players. the good ones will know what will happen most of the time before it happens. I remember several years ago watching Antonio (the Magician) cover the final table live (15 minute delay) and we would only see the hole cards after the hands were over. He was spot on with ranges and bet sizing over and over again.

What used to take players many years to figure out can now be learned in a year or two with study and and honed with a enough hands.

I agree, watching Esfandiari that year was INCREDIBLE. I was fascinated with his commentary and accuracy.
 

PlayerADK

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This is not a fast process. It can and should take a couple of days to discuss what to do and why.
I'm calling the clock on this guy :D

Totally kidding - good luck with your strategy improvements. DrStrange is one of the most thoughtful analyzers here. Best advice!

I've always been a big fan of PAHWM breakdowns. It helps keep you in check and find the weak spots in your game. As DrStrange said, develop a thick skin and leave ego at the door. People aren't afraid to tell you what they think and why - and that's what you need to hear when improving your game!
 

Caveatemptor

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Abstract advice isn't likely to prove helpful. A better path is to dissect a single hand at a time, one decision point at a time. This is not a fast process. It can and should take a couple of days to discuss what to do and why.

Find a hand that you found troublesome and post it as a strategy. Stack sizes can be estimated, but pretend you do remember exactly. Same thing with the bets. The more information about the villains, the better.

Have a thick skin, sometimes people can be a bit unforgiving. You will learn lots of stuff. And remember that good results does not mean well played, bad results do not imply a mistake.

Go get 'em tiger! -=- DrStrange
DrStrange, I like, Jake14mw am struggling with my cash game betting strategy
I too am an excellent tournament player but my tournament play carries over to my cash play, tight aggressive (great for tournament)...
Most people I play cash with, know my play style, so it's hard for me to get paid off when holding monster hands cuz everyone folds when I bet, very frustrating!
How do I break this image?
Thanks
 

DrStrange

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Don't break the image. Exploit the image. The more they fold, the more you want to exploit.

Maybe limp, 3-bet preflop with a wide array of hands. Maybe steal the limps with a late position raise. Maybe inflate your c-bet range to include even more air.

You might play a few more hands, likely will. More to the point, you bluffing and semi bluffing frequency will rise. It could also be your aggression will be multistreet. Or perhaps not, you may find most of time you get called the villains have a real hand or a significant draw. You will have to learn what to do when you get called.

Try not to show your cards. The longer the table thinks you have the goods when you bet, the better.
 

upNdown

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DrStrange, I like, Jake14mw am struggling with my cash game betting strategy
I too am an excellent tournament player but my tournament play carries over to my cash play, tight aggressive (great for tournament)...
Most people I play cash with, know my play style, so it's hard for me to get paid off when holding monster hands cuz everyone folds when I bet, very frustrating!
How do I break this image?
Thanks
If you really are an excellent tournament player, you're not just playing tight aggressive. Maybe that's your base strategy, but especially for tournaments, you have to know when to turn it on and turn it off. Adapt you your table. Exploit your image. Adapt to ICM considerations (and to whether others are adapting to that.) You can't succeed trying to play a style that you're not comfortable with, but the more you try to mix it up a bit, the more you'll become comfortable doing different things.
In the casinos and cardrooms, I do great at tournaments and terrible at the cash tables. The biggest reason for this has nothing to do with any image or style - it's that I'm usually playing scared money. I'm great with dropping $150 for a tournament, but I'm usually not excited to burn through multiple buyins at a $1/2 or $1/3 NLHE table. I do great with my friends when we play .25/.50 NLHE - does that mean that I actually can be good at cash? I dunno. Until I can walk into the casino with a grand in my pocket, not caring if I light it on fire, I'll never know. So I don't play cash.
Just my thoughts.
 

lateapex

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Abstract advice isn't likely to prove helpful. A better path is to dissect a single hand at a time, one decision point at a time. This is not a fast process. It can and should take a couple of days to discuss what to do and why.

Find a hand that you found troublesome and post it as a strategy. Stack sizes can be estimated, but pretend you do remember exactly. Same thing with the bets. The more information about the villains, the better.

Have a thick skin, sometimes people can be a bit unforgiving. You will learn lots of stuff. And remember that good results does not mean well played, bad results do not imply a mistake.

Go get 'em tiger! -=- DrStrange
I am a big fan if dissecting single /actual hands. One book that helped me a lot was an old one by Gus Hansen where he looked at dozens of his hands from one tournament.
 

lateapex

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If you really are an excellent tournament player, you're not just playing tight aggressive. Maybe that's your base strategy, but especially for tournaments, you have to know when to turn it on and turn it off. Adapt you your table. Exploit your image. Adapt to ICM considerations (and to whether others are adapting to that.) You can't succeed trying to play a style that you're not comfortable with, but the more you try to mix it up a bit, the more you'll become comfortable doing different things.
In the casinos and cardrooms, I do great at tournaments and terrible at the cash tables. The biggest reason for this has nothing to do with any image or style - it's that I'm usually playing scared money. I'm great with dropping $150 for a tournament, but I'm usually not excited to burn through multiple buyins at a $1/2 or $1/3 NLHE table. I do great with my friends when we play .25/.50 NLHE - does that mean that I actually can be good at cash? I dunno. Until I can walk into the casino with a grand in my pocket, not caring if I light it on fire, I'll never know. So I don't play cash.
Just my thoughts.
+1. This is very well put. Also back to knowing the good bad and ugly of your own game. Starts with that.
 

Caveatemptor

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Don't break the image. Exploit the image. The more they fold, the more you want to exploit.

Maybe limp, 3-bet preflop with a wide array of hands. Maybe steal the limps with a late position raise. Maybe inflate your c-bet range to include even more air.

You might play a few more hands, likely will. More to the point, you bluffing and semi bluffing frequency will rise. It could also be your aggression will be multistreet. Or perhaps not, you may find most of time you get called the villains have a real hand or a significant draw. You will have to learn what to do when you get called.

Try not to show your cards. The longer the table thinks you have the goods when you bet, the better.
You're absolutely correct that any callers I get usually have a real hand or strong draws. That's where I run into "what do I do next?"

Bet sizing is where I struggle most when I actually have a medium to strong hand
I tend to under bet my strongest hands and over bet my weak hands, idkw
And usually out of frustration, I bluff more, winning the pot.
Sometimes I think I should just bluff everything, lol

I'm a fairly young player (meaning I've only been playing a little under a year), so I have a lot to learn still.
But despite my limited experience, I've cashed a little over $10K, taking 1st in 7 consecutive tournaments, at the poker room where I play.
Players don't like to see me at tournaments

But then I give some of it back, in cash games.
Players love to see me at cash games!

I know that some are better at tournament, while others are great cash players. I want to be good at both.

I love the advice, I'm going to put it into practice, on Monday's cash game. Shake things up!
Thank you
 

Caveatemptor

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If you really are an excellent tournament player, you're not just playing tight aggressive. Maybe that's your base strategy, but especially for tournaments, you have to know when to turn it on and turn it off. Adapt you your table. Exploit your image. Adapt to ICM considerations (and to whether others are adapting to that.) You can't succeed trying to play a style that you're not comfortable with, but the more you try to mix it up a bit, the more you'll become comfortable doing different things.
In the casinos and cardrooms, I do great at tournaments and terrible at the cash tables. The biggest reason for this has nothing to do with any image or style - it's that I'm usually playing scared money. I'm great with dropping $150 for a tournament, but I'm usually not excited to burn through multiple buyins at a $1/2 or $1/3 NLHE table. I do great with my friends when we play .25/.50 NLHE - does that mean that I actually can be good at cash? I dunno. Until I can walk into the casino with a grand in my pocket, not caring if I light it on fire, I'll never know. So I don't play cash.
Just my thoughts.
Yes, I do need to mix it up when playing cash. Throw things at them they're not expecting.
I just don't understand why I struggle with my cash game, when my instincts are really sharp in tournament. I know exactly when to turn it up, and when to turn it off, I'm very patient I've been told.

If I continue to struggle with cash, I should probably take your advice and not play

I'm reading Mike Caro right now (it was given to me by a floor manager, at the MGM poker room, Vegas)
He said it would help me develop my cash game

Ironically, when you commented lighting $1k on fire
Mike Caro says he used to light a $100 bill on fire just to show the table, he didn't care about the money, lol, making him seem like a lag.
He really stresses how important table image is.

I wish you the best, if you continue to play cash.
Thank you for your feedback.
 

big_alv77

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You're absolutely correct that any callers I get usually have a real hand or strong draws. That's where I run into "what do I do next?"

Bet sizing is where I struggle most when I actually have a medium to strong hand
I tend to under bet my strongest hands and over bet my weak hands, idkw
And usually out of frustration, I bluff more, winning the pot.
Sometimes I think I should just bluff everything, lol

I'm a fairly young player (meaning I've only been playing a little under a year), so I have a lot to learn still.
But despite my limited experience, I've cashed a little over $10K, taking 1st in 7 consecutive tournaments, at the poker room where I play.
Players don't like to see me at tournaments

But then I give some of it back, in cash games.
Players love to see me at cash games!

I know that some are better at tournament, while others are great cash players. I want to be good at both.

I love the advice, I'm going to put it into practice, on Monday's cash game. Shake things up!
Thank you
I hope it's ok to join the discussion....

Just a thought about bet-sizing in relation to your hand-strength:

If you're betting according to your hand-strength, then an observant player may pick up on this and exploit you by doing the opposite of what you want them to do. Think about this, if you bet small because your hand is strong, then your opponent will fold. Likewise, if you bet big with a weak-/medium-strength hand, then your opponent may call more frequently. So, what does this mean?

Well, rather than *just* betting your hand, think of *why* you are betting?

Is it for protection?
It is for value?
Is it a bluff?

Then, consider *how* you want your opponent to react to your bet. Do you want them to fold, call, or raise you?

Once you start taking the above into consideration, then following previously posted advise about specific hand examples, try to see an appropriate line to take where your opponent cannot determine what your bet means. That is, they won't know whether your bet is for protection, value, or a bluff. That's when they start making mistakes and where you start improving as a player. As an example, my sweet spot for value bets and bluffs are roughly the same (~ 1/2 pot-size bets) depending on the situation. But, that's without context, of course.

I hope this helps.
 
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