Hand from today

Discussion in 'Poker Strategy' started by krafticus, Oct 12, 2017.

  1. Oct 12, 2017 at 2:21 PM
    #1
    krafticus

    krafticus Flush

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    playing 1/2 today, and it is still fairly early in the session. Hero was just coolered on an earlier hand with AK on an AK5 board. That villain had 55 and held.

    2 hands later, Hero has his full 300 rebuy and is in late position. Our SB is the same villain from earlier, with the BB our new villain. SB has hero covered, BB started the hand with ~ 200. Neither player seems too skilled, but i could be wrong.

    Hero is dealt 78hh into a limped pot. Hero decides to limp this time. The flop is 872 rainbow. SB leads for 10. BB raises to 30. Action on hero.

    What should hero do?
     
  2. Oct 12, 2017 at 2:28 PM
    #2
    Rhodeman77

    Rhodeman77 Flush

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    I like a flat call. Blowing up the pot her chases away the weaker made hands we want in like A8. Not really any other 2 pair hands likely with that board so the other made hands that beat us are sets, and a set of 2's is definitely possible in limped pot.

    Unless you have a read that BB would be raising with a hand like 9 10 then a flat is best.

    If you think he could raise here with 9 10 then I would be putting in the 3 bet.

    Edit: how did the betting go with the cooler hand? Since this is very similar flop texture it could be very relevant.
     
  3. Oct 12, 2017 at 2:34 PM
    #3
    WedgeRock

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    You were behind the whole time. Fold pre. ;)

    So $6 PF? Now you have to call $30 to win $46 (and get through the original bettor)?

    Min. raise is to $50 and you might be getting into a situation where your stack is committed. If you think BB is not too skilled, he could easily limp PF with 77 or 88, and certainly 22 regardless. SB could limp with 72 or 82, but 56/69/9T is probably more likely.

    I flat here to pot control.
     
  4. Oct 12, 2017 at 2:39 PM
    #4
    BGinGA

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    Raise or fold pre-flop, really don't like the limp, ever. If never limping in with premium hands in this spot, then you shouldn't be doing it with something lesser, either.

    As played, flat the BB raise, but have a plan for when SB re-raises. The action here is far from over.

    Or just fold now to somebody's pocket twos, and save yourself some grief. :)
     
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  5. Oct 12, 2017 at 2:51 PM
    #5
    Jimulacrum

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    Raise to $60, half-expecting the SB or the BB to reraise. If so, you'll have to fold, but that's great because it gets you off the hook (relatively) cheaply.

    If no one reraises, though, you (a) will probably get checked to on the turn (b) are probably ahead. If so, make it $80 on the turn, with the intention of checking behind the river if you don't improve.

    Against two players in the blinds, you may well be up against 82 or 72, and you don't want to lose those customers when you're dominating so nicely. The near-min raise should make it hard for those hands to fold, and same with an $80 turn bet. On the other hand, if you're up against a set, either you get re-popped and fold, or you control the pot by raising, betting smallish on the turn, and then checking for a free showdown.

    Everyone who's recommending a flat call: what is your plan for the turn and river?
     
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  6. Oct 12, 2017 at 2:53 PM
    #6
    BGinGA

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    Turn / River ?? Hell, what's the plan for the rest of the flop betting??!
     
  7. Oct 12, 2017 at 2:59 PM
    #7
    WedgeRock

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    Bottom set will flat Hero's flop raise, not repop it. Then you're a 6:1 dog, albeit with position.

    Pray for an 8.

    I probably check it down unless my hand fills up. And fold if an overcard to the board comes and is bet.

    EDIT: Written out, that's a pretty passive line, making me rethink my flat on the flop. As tough as it is to fold top two, I think flatting gives you the chance to see how strong they think they are. If they are strong or crazy, either way, I have to let my hand go.
     
  8. Oct 12, 2017 at 3:15 PM
    #8
    Rhodeman77

    Rhodeman77 Flush

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    If it checked to me on the turn I am betting if the board looks decent, no J, 9, 6 or 4 for one of the open end straight draws.
     
  9. Oct 12, 2017 at 3:18 PM
    #9
    WedgeRock

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    Even an A? K? Q?
     
  10. Oct 12, 2017 at 3:34 PM
    #10
    Rhodeman77

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    An A would scare me a little, K or Q wouldn't bother me, I would bet those cards for sure.

    If an A comes off and it is checked to me then yes, I am betting. I would assume if one of them has Aces up they would bet the turn. Our hand looks like a drawing hand if we just flat the flop so a 2 pair hand would have to bet to get their value now and to charge us to draw.
     
  11. Oct 12, 2017 at 3:48 PM
    #11
    BGinGA

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    Yeah, sorta my plan for the flop, too. If SB re-raises, I'm folding, regardless whether or not BB calls or raises him again. Flatting the initial BB raise minimizes my cost to see the turn vs me 3-betting it (also folding to any re-raise).


    Plan for the turn if flatting the flop? Assuming SB calls, it's three to the turn with 90 in the pot and 210 remaining in my stack. If SB folds (unlikely), it's 70 in the pot heads-up. Unlikely it will be checked to me, but if so, I'm betting about $40, and expecting one caller. Leaves me with a pot-size bet for the river, which may or may not go in.
     
  12. Oct 12, 2017 at 4:46 PM
    #12
    Ben

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    Flatting seems very bad - we have a nearly nutted but potentially vulnerable hand against 2 guys who can show up with literally any two. Many turn cards could kill our action or beat us. We're probably not getting further action from one pair hands regardless, unless they catch up to us. Many casino $1/$2 players will stack off though with 82 or 72 I think. Some with something like T9 as well.

    I make it $75 and probably call a jam from either, although if it's SB that jams I might try to get some lollivereads.
     
  13. Oct 12, 2017 at 5:09 PM
    #13
    krafticus

    krafticus Flush

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    Hero flats the $30, SB folds. Turn is the Ac. Villain checks, action on hero
     
  14. Oct 12, 2017 at 5:15 PM
    #14
    WedgeRock

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    Bet.

    $40.

    Fold to a check-raise.
     
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  15. Oct 12, 2017 at 5:17 PM
    #15
    Rhodeman77

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    I'm betting $40 here. If he is tricky enough to raise A8 or A7 on the flop but then check it to us thinking we would bet when we only flat called the flop then good for him. He got us. His hand is starting to feel like a week top pair or a straight draw.
     
  16. Oct 12, 2017 at 6:20 PM
    #16
    BGinGA

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    Yep.
     
  17. Oct 12, 2017 at 6:32 PM
    #17
    WedgeRock

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    $40 into a $76 pot gives him 3:1 to call his draw. Best case scenario on a draw is 8 outs (OESD), or about 18%, so he's getting less than 5:1. A check-raise tells me he's better than a draw, a call and we have to re-evaluate on the river, a fold and wooooooooot!
     
  18. Oct 12, 2017 at 6:58 PM
    #18
    AWenger

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    Since the pot was limped around preflop to the BB -- his range could be any 2 rags, right -- it's just as likely he's got 82 or 72 two pair, than A8 (or A7).

    On the turn there's $76 in the pot, and he's got around $170 behind. Am I ever folding what was top 2 pair on the flop, here on the turn when the A hits, for only $170, when the BB range could be any 2 rags? Probably not. If he lucked into an A on the turn, so be it. Bet $50-60. I'm not folding to a raise.
     
  19. Oct 12, 2017 at 7:11 PM
    #19
    Ben

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    At this point just check - with the A hitting we aren't doing well against his "get it in" range and I feel like we'd have to bet really small to hope to get any value (and maybe not even then.)

    We're better off bluff-catching missed straights or value-bombing the river (we can bet more and look bluffier at that point after a flat and a check-back; could get hero-called.)
     
  20. Oct 12, 2017 at 7:17 PM
    #20
    WedgeRock

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    I think you check the turn and you are giving up on the hand. You won't get any more info. His river bet could just be a feeler bet. What are you going to do, call? After checking back the turn? If you bet the turn, at least you get info about how strong villain values his hand (or how crazy he is if he shows a bluff).
     
  21. Oct 12, 2017 at 8:43 PM
    #21
    Ben

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    Yes. The "get stacks in good" ship pretty much sailed with the flat call on the flop and ace on the turn.

    The rest of your point makes absolutely no sense to me in the context of how I think about the game. How would checking back be "giving up on the hand?" How would "info" help us if it costs us significant EV to get it, especially in a low-SPR situation?

    If villain shows up to the river with ten-high, unless he is a total nit he'll take a decent to big stab at the pot after a check-back. If he has something like 89 or bottom two, he'll be more likely to pay off a good-sized river bet after a turn check-back. If he happened to turn aces up and try to get tricky, he won't get the full double-up.
     
  22. Oct 12, 2017 at 10:45 PM
    #22
    Jimulacrum

    Jimulacrum Tourney Director

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    Bet $50 on the turn. Make him pay if he's drawing. I'm not especially afraid of the ace, because he's on a BB Special, so it's not much worse than any other overcard as far as ability to give him a bigger two pair.

    If he check-raise shoves, it's a judgment call, and I'm definitely going to have to needle him and see how he responds. Some players may still feel good about a ragged two pair here, some may only shove with aces up, and some may be looking to get it all-in with 9T. Hard to tell what he's got from the action so far.
     
  23. Oct 13, 2017 at 12:26 AM
    #23
    Mojo1312

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    Seems like there is not enough history with either villain to know how they value hands or how skilled they might be. lol raising or folding every hand pre-flop. As described, I think a $70 re-raise after the flop would have been a better play. We really don't know where we stand. More importantly, how is villain going to read our flatting his raise on the flop? If he is trapping with a set, he will likely flat and check or value bet whatever he thinks we are committed to calling on the river. Conversely, he may be controlling the pot if he has a weaker two pair. Bet $50 to $55.
     
  24. Oct 13, 2017 at 12:39 AM
    #24
    WedgeRock

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    Because you're giving him the opportunity to bet you out of the hand on the river... He my have a piece, but not the best hand... Your check tells him he might be good and with that in mind, he makes a bet you can't call.

    I'd rather bet and tell him I'm good and make him squirm. If he finds a call, he likely checks the river. And if he check-raises the turn, you got your information... Now what are you going to do with it?
     
  25. Oct 13, 2017 at 12:44 AM
    #25
    BGinGA

    BGinGA Tourney Director

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    Note to self: always check-raise Wedge on the turn. :sneaky:
     
  26. Oct 13, 2017 at 12:49 AM
    #26
    WedgeRock

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    I didn't say I'd fold. Just that I've gotten information. Now what to do with it?
     
  27. Oct 13, 2017 at 1:02 AM
    #27
    BGinGA

    BGinGA Tourney Director

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    au contraire....
     
  28. Oct 13, 2017 at 8:38 AM
    #28
    krafticus

    krafticus Flush

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    Ok, once villain checks, I bet $35. Villain thinks for a second, and raises to $100. Hero...
     
  29. Oct 13, 2017 at 9:23 AM
    #29
    WedgeRock

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    There's so much more detail needed, but based on what's provided, if he only thought for a second, he was intending to check raise.

    Based on that, fold.

    But if there are indicators that he might be trying to push you out of the pot, you can call. Or, since you can reasonably expect that he's going to bet any river, if you plan to call that too, well, then just get it in now. Without a strong read, tho, find a better spot.
     
  30. Oct 13, 2017 at 9:35 AM
    #30
    trever

    trever Two Pair

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    Fold, but call or maybe raise? Don't paint the poor guy into a corner, give him some options!