Hand From 200K Guaranteed Little Slick Tourney (1 Viewer)

[Anthony Martino]

Players started with 20K chips. Hero came to the table with 70K chips but had AK cracked by the chipleaders KQ to knock him down a few pegs.

Blinds are 1,000/1,500 with a 1,500 big blind ante. Hero's stack is 30,500 (roughly 20 bb and an M of a bit over 7)

We are 9-handed, UTG+1 limps, UTG+2 limps, EP limps, MP limps, hero is hijack with

Hero has been playing fit or fold, has not limped in. Either folds or raises. Has only shown down solid/strong holdings.

Limpers stacks range from 20-80K. The table has not limped like this for quite some time, usually there's been a preflop raise and it's gotten 2-3 handed or everyone folds.

Behind the Hero on the button is the monster chip leader at the table. He's sitting on around 250K in chips and called an all-in with bottom pair top kicker and doubled up a short-stack in a previous hand (he called a raise with A3 offsuit, flop was 3TQ and he called the shove and doubled up the guy with KK)

So anyway, there is presently 10,000 chips in the pot. It's limped to Hero in the hijack with and a stack of 30,500. Hero ?

 

[Kain8]

Uh, fold faster than Superman on laundry day.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Uh, fold faster than Superman on laundry day.

Sorry, Marvel fan, DC is weaksauce

 

[Jimulacrum]

Yeah, just fold. It's tempting, but you're probably not folding out the field with a raise, and limping is likely to unnecessarily dump 1,500 if someone raises behind you, or get you into tough spots.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Yeah, just fold. It's tempting, but you're probably not folding out the field with a raise, and limping is likely to unnecessarily dump 1,500 if someone raises behind you, or get you into tough spots preflop.

Nit alert!

 

[Anthony Martino]

Hero shoves all-in for 30,500. They can't call, they all limped in, there's no strength there and we can increase our stack by a third

 

[Anthony Martino]

Hero shoves all-in for 30,500. They can't call, they all limped in, there's no strength there and we can increase our stack by a third

Asian lady who limped calls off her 20K stack with

Flop comes (my heart drops)…………. (my heart soars)………………. (my hopes are dashed yet again)

And I could've gotten away with it too if it wasn't for these calling stations and their s00ted Aces!

That crippled me, made my stand UTG with A8 and the chip leader UTG+2 called my shove with KT off because gamboool and spiked a King and that was my adventure. Finished 30th/128

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

No problem with raising if it’s early in the tournament and everyone has plenty of bigs, but with 20bbs you’re in no position to play these types of hands. Fold.

 

[Anthony Martino]

No problem with raising if it’s early in the tournament and everyone has plenty of bigs, but with 20bbs you’re in no position to play these types of hands. Fold.

Well I agree I can't call. Folding is certainly viable. But I think my shove gets through if it wasn't for the lady who was willing to limp-call off her stack that deep into the event with A6 suited. EVERYONE was folding and then it got to her (she was the EP limper, there was only one player left after her to act) and she decided to call off.

Given the hands I had shown down up to that point she should figure to be way behind my range, but I guess I gave her too much credit and only have myself to blame. Been working on expanding my risk-taking in events, trying new plays, stealing more, restealing more, etc.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Someone once said, “Don’t try to bluff players that can’t be bluffed.”

 

[Highli99]

Sucks to last that long and bust but shoving 10 8 into a bunch of limpers with less than 20 blinds is pretty likely to get called by someone. If you do get called the hand is challenging. I actually like the call. Ace High is often good.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Sucks to last that long and bust but shoving 10 8 into a bunch of limpers with less than 20 blinds is pretty likely to get called by someone. If you do get called the hand is challenging. I actually like the call. Ace High is often good.

Lol ok. My play gets past EVERYONE but the fish who is limping for 1500 with a 20k stack with ace rag suited and then calling off against a player who has shown down only strong holdings

These fish are all hoping to limp and see a cheap flop with garbage, that's no way to win a tourney.

If she had shoved pre, kudos to her. But limp calling when my range is strong given the way I had been playing is just awful

My hand doesn't matter when I shove in that spot, because baeed on the players and their actions no one has a hand they should be calling my shove with

Also I don't have less than 20 blinds. I have slightly more. And when I shove 30,500 into the 10,000 pot the majority of the players have to call 29,000 to win 40,500. All those dolts this deep still limping K8 suited and 45, etc should be folding

 

[Highli99]

Lol ok. My play gets past EVERYONE but the fish who is limping for 1500 with a 20k stack with ace rag suited and then calling off against a player who has shown down only strong holdings

These fish are all hoping to limp and see a cheap flop with garbage, that's no way to win a tourney.

If she had shoved pre, kudos to her. But limp calling when my range is strong given the way I had been playing is just awful

My hand doesn't matter when I shove in that spot, because baeed on the players and their actions no one has a hand they should be calling my shove with

I guess what I’m saying is that fish are not paying attention to your tight play so it doesn’t surprise me that one of the numerous limpers called you.

Against better players your move might work, unless they were good enough to notice your position and sniff out your steal.

The call with suited ace rag is a little easier when she is almost the last to act, so she know she is going heads up. She might have contemplated shoving and then your push convinced her to do it.

 

[Perthmike]

Lol ok. My play gets past EVERYONE but the fish who is limping for 1500 with a 20k stack with ace rag suited and then calling off against a player who has shown down only strong holdings

These fish are all hoping to limp and see a cheap flop with garbage, that's no way to win a tourney.

If she had shoved pre, kudos to her. But limp calling when my range is strong given the way I had been playing is just awful

My hand doesn't matter when I shove in that spot, because baeed on the players and their actions no one has a hand they should be calling my shove with

Also I don't have less than 20 blinds. I have slightly more. And when I shove 30,500 into the 10,000 pot the majority of the players have to call 29,000 to win 40,500. All those dolts this deep still limping K8 suited and 45, etc should be folding

I’m not a tourney player, but in my mind your shove wouldn’t look too strong and I’d be expecting you to do it with a fairly wide range, which you have since confirmed by saying you’d basically do it with anything because you don’t expect them to have strong hands. It’s got to be tempting for a suited ace to look you up.

I just don’t think 10 8 suited is the hand to be jamming with and I’d expect you to get called a lot in that spot. There’s a lot of chips in play before your jam, and who’s to say someone in early position hasn’t limped a monster, hoping to induce a late position jam.

Also, if these morons are limping like that, don’t expect them to react sensibly.

 

[Jimulacrum]

You can say all you want that they should be folding, and perhaps that's true. But that doesn't make it a correct play to bluff-shove four loose-passive players who voluntarily put chips in the pot, plus four others who haven't acted yet. You're going to get called way too often in that spot, and when called, you will almost never be ahead. Doesn't matter if the call is a good call or a bad call. It's likely to happen, and you're bluffing right into it. Save your chips for (much) better spots.

 

[abby99]

My play gets past EVERYONE but the fish . . .

Why do we get upset when fish play like fish?

 

[DrStrange]

So Hero is pondering a fancy play. Advanced poker logic makes the play look potentially successful. It might even have some mathematical positive expected value { though the math likely is better for cash play than "in the money" tournament play. } But Hero's advanced poker logic is founded on unwarranted assumptions and he ends up with a seat on the rail plus a good story instead. Let's see why.

Hero assumes that the limpers have implied their hands are weak by limping rather than raising. This is often true, but I have seen plenty of cases where loose, passive players just don't raise preflop. They are happy limp / calling for stacks. As we can see from this specific hand they can call off quite lightly.

Hero should be on full notice that a lot of the players at his table aren't advanced poker players. Just seeing four out of four players limp from early positions should be enough. Fancy play poker logic that depends on "level zero" thinking players putting Hero on a range and evaluating said range vs their hand and seeing a fold is best . . . . well that isn't going to work out well many times. Hero didn't mention the size of the buy-in but I expect it is low enough for the event to be inexpensive entertainment and attracted the class of players who might be looking for a fun way to kill a few hours.

Hero also seems to have neglected to consider the four following players is his risk vs reward analysis. There is a sizable chance of getting called by a better hand. Maybe because the recreational player sees "any ace" is good enough to call the all-in [ just like that professional guy on the TV said last week ]. Or maybe old man, coffee wakes up with a top 5% hand. Or maybe a seriously good player reads Hero's intentions and picks off a steal attempt with a marginal hand.

I'd hazard a guess that hero gets called something like 30% - 40% of the time by one of the four hands remaining to act. As it turned out, this risk didn't turn into an actual hazard in the hand. But we would be remiss not raising the question.

The thread was resolved very quickly. In an hour Hero gets two of two replies saying fold. I expect this total might have grown considerably had the discussion continued. Of course, once we know A6s is a calling hand, then we know how unwise it is to push T8s. And that kills most if not all of potential advice to do anything but fold. { we all know quotes about success having many parents but failure is an orphan. }

TLRD: Hero fails in his villain reads and thus his fancy play crashes and burns. -OR- as @abby99 said "Why do we get upset when fish play like fish?"

DrStrange

 

[Frogzilla]

Why not just call pre? i think I’m calling most small pockets and most of my suited connectors with that many calls ahead of me

 

[Anthony Martino]

Against Villains hero is 42% to win. Hero is risking 20K to win 30K (dead money in pot plus villains whole stack), so 1.5 to 1 on his money. Hero needs to be 40% equity for this play to be breakeven in the long-term so it's close.

But you also have to consider Hero is pushing the action with a 20bb stack, not waiting to dwindle down to 8-12BB before he makes a stand and is guaranteed to get looked up. Hero has significant fold equity and that should also factor into the equation here. Hero isn't the one calling off, he has a chance to force folds and increase his stack by a third.

I bet if I had presented this from the Villains perspective the responses would've been interesting:

Hero limps for 1500 with a 20K stack from EP after two other limpers, there's another limper and a player who has only shown down solid hands shoves for 30,500. Folds around to Hero, Hero????

 

[Anthony Martino]

Why not just call pre? i think I’m calling most small pockets and most of my suited connectors with that many calls ahead of me

Because there's an opportunity to increase our stack by a third against players that most likely cannot call a shove. And because Hero's stack isn't deep enough to be limping suited connectors anymore.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Whether Villain's call with is correct isn't at issue here. Pretty sure everyone agrees with that.

Where you're going way wrong is in saying things like "Hero has significant fold equity" and "against players that most likely cannot call a shove." Hero doesn't have significant fold equity against this field. Obviously one or more of them could call a shove, even with as light a hand as A6s.

Your 42% equity against this specific hand doesn't really mean anything unless you were shoving into specifically knowing you'd get called. Villain's calling range includes a ton of hands. Hero is probably ahead of none of them at all, and is a massive dog against a fair number of them. If A6 is a call, so is A8, AT, AK, 88, TT, maybe even as low as TJs, and why not KTs? She could really have had a lot of hands where you're a 2:1 or worse dog, and she's too loose to fold the vast majority of them.

Against the calling range of a Villain like this, is a terrible hand. You want simple high-value hands to make moves like this against a player like that—because she may call with all kinds of dominated crap. And yes, that means it's not as easy for you to steal blinds and limps preflop as it would be in a tourney with a lot of weak-tight players. Those moves mostly go out the window, replaced by a much greater chance of getting paid off on every big hand you catch.

 

[BGinGA]

Pretty clear fold in this spot, imo -- still time to find better spots against this group of players. Hero's all-in move seems strong at simple glance, but is in fact quite weak.

Hero's claimed appearance of strength is overinflated against this field, and totally discounts a) actual calling ranges, b) early slow-played monsters, and c) four unknown hands yet to act.

One of the best ways to get in trouble at the poker table is to think that everybody else thinks like you do...... because they often don't. You can use this to your advantage with relatively strong holdings, but it's usually a disaster with garbage hands.

 

[Mojo1312]

Own it. And move on.

 

[Steve Birrer]

Yup fold. When I have four limpers in front of me (I am already cautious now that at least one is slow playing) and four to act behind me a shove with a very marginal hand is a losing proposition since I think Dr. Strange has correctly pointed out that Hero is likely to get called and be behind. One piece of data would be important to know. Hero said he was called by Asian Lady but didn't tell us which player that was. Her call may have induced others to fold that had even better hands!

 

[moose]

I like the move. Save it for SQM.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Yup fold. When I have four limpers in front of me (I am already cautious now that at least one is slow playing) and four to act behind me a shove with a very marginal hand is a losing proposition since I think Dr. Strange has correctly pointed out that Hero is likely to get called and be behind. One piece of data would be important to know. Hero said he was called by Asian Lady but didn't tell us which player that was. Her call may have induced others to fold that had even better hands!

Asian lady was EP limper. I had already folded out the four players to act behind me, plus the two utg limpers

It was her and MP left to get through

 

[Anthony Martino]

Own it. And move on.

I'm not leaving until somebody recognizes my advanced pokerz, SCREEEEEEEE!!

I like the move. Save it for SQM.

Ok I'm good

 

[moose]

I don't think it was as egregious as everyone is making it out. You have to acquire chips when it is low risk. I like the move more with something like 108 than Ax, where if you get called you are far less likely to be dominated. As others have pointed out this is a move you can make more safely from the button or even the blinds where, once you are all in, your position doesn't matter anymore.

Also as you stated if you reversed the information and gave yourself the Ax and had someone else shove I believe 99% of the responses would have been fold with a lot of spanking for limping your Ax. When there is 30ish left out of 120+ I think you can assume your move will be more successful than not, as most of the bad players will have been long gone by this point.

I think most players biggest leak is struggling to a min-cash when they should be more aggressive in later stages of a tournament to bring a large stack to the final table and go for the win instead. If you had been called and won then you would have developed a great image for later shoves when you really DO want that call.

 

[Anthony Martino]

@moose you get me man!

 

[Highli99]

I don't think it was as egregious as everyone is making it out. You have to acquire chips when it is low risk. I like the move more with something like 108 than Ax, where if you get called you are far less likely to be dominated. As others have pointed out this is a move you can make more safely from the button or even the blinds where, once you are all in, your position doesn't matter anymore.

Also as you stated if you reversed the information and gave yourself the Ax and had someone else shove I believe 99% of the responses would have been fold with a lot of spanking for limping your Ax. When there is 30ish left out of 120+ I think you can assume your move will be more successful than not, as most of the bad players will have been long gone by this point.

I think most players biggest leak is struggling to a min-cash when they should be more aggressive in later stages of a tournament to bring a large stack to the final table and go for the win instead. If you had been called and won then you would have developed a great image for later shoves when you really DO want that call.

I see the move as high risk rather than low risk. I don’t think we want a call but a call is likely in this situation. I applaud the aggressiveness though. Better to go out guns a blazing then in a wimper of limps.