General Thoughts on Pushing Small Edges (and a Crazy O8 Hand) (1 Viewer)

[Moxie Mike]

The purpose of this thread is more of a general discussion of the concept of pushing small edges in fixed limit games, not necessarily a dissection of the hand I'm about to describe. That part is more just to kick off the conversation.

$4-$8 limit O8 at a local casino. Full table - all relevant stacks are large enough to cap every street. Skill wise all players in the hand fall into the 'competent enough to read their hands and bet/call accordingly' category; only Villian One (V1) is notably more analytical than the other opponents. Personality wise, everyone at the table is pretty cool and friendly, except for the button, who is a little arrogant and tends to get irritated when players don't play hands the way he thinks they should have, especially when it causes him the inconvenience of putting in additional bets to chase his draws.

Preflop: After one limper, V1 raises to 8. Hero calls in position with . Button cold calls two bets, as does the SB and the EP limper. Pot: 10 small bets.

5 handed we take a flop of:

UTG opens, V1 raises and I 3-bet. All 5 players call. Pot: 30 small bets.

Turn:

V1 opens, I raise. Button is becoming visibly annoyed with me. V1 3-bets and I cap. Every player calls. Pot: 35 big bets.

Button becomes more agitated with each raise I put in. I'm convinced he is holding X , and while it's disappointing to know my club draw is no good, I find it oddly delightful to be holding 3 blockers to his flush.

River

V1 opens, I raise. Button cold calls reluctantly, SB folds, EP limper calls, V1 3-bets and I cap. Button tanks for a few seconds and then folds, EP limper calls. V1, as he's flinging the final 8 chips into the pot laments... 'well worst case scenario I'm getting quartered'.

Shit. This was the exact same thing that was running through my head too at that moment. Pot: 49 big bets= $392.

So why jam every street, especially the river?

1) I've got the nut low with the club flush draw. Plus I've got the nut low partially blocked, so the odds of running into more than 1 other nut low are rather remote. It's also possible I have the only nut low and everyone is chasing straight and flush draws.

2) We know that at least 2 players are chasing high-hands and one of them is drawing to nut-clubs to which we hold 3 blockers.

3) Getting drawing hands to put in as much money as possible before eventually folding is where much of the profit comes from in split pot games and makes getting quartered much more palatable - and in this case would have shown a slight profit. Yes, I said 'would have'.

Spoiler: Crazy Showdown

EP shows down XX for nut low and no pairs.

V1 shows down - yes he had blockers to the nut low too(!) and wins the hi with his pair of 3s(!).

Hero gets sixthed and shows a $19 loss on the hand.

In retrospect, jamming 4 bets in on the river was pointless, other than the childish satisfaction that comes from knowing I moved the button off the best high hand and earning a table image as a maniac. Inevitably a discussion ensued, where the button indignantly said to me at some point 'your clubs were no good', his already furrowed brow morphing into an outright scowl mid-sentence.

'I figured they weren't', I replied to him with a grin.

Where I'm going with all of this is the concept of pushing small edges in split pot games, especially when the edge is marginal. For example, while making your opponents put in extra money with inferior hands is proper, it often feels like we're just building a pot for someone else. A quick example of this is in the same O8 game, 4-handed I held AKQ9 in position on an board. After the turn card the action checked to me, so I bet. Seems appropriate to bet here since I've got top two and no reason to believe I was behind despite the fact that virtually every river will complete one draw or another. In this case, the hit the river and all of a sudden I'm facing 2 bets and forced to release the hand.

Is there any merit to the idea that small edges should be passed when being outdrawn for at least 1/2 the pot is a strong possibility?

 

[DrStrange]

Fixed limit game win rates are tiny relative to big bet games - great players win less than 4 big bets per hundred hands. Translate that to 1 or 2 big bets per hour. This is a dewy eyed best case sort of win rate at lower limits where the rake crushes your soul. Hero would be skilled not to lose money playing $4-$8, but you could "win" if you get enough free drinks.

Hero needs to push small edges. This is where his/her entire win rate comes from. There is a flip side to this, getting money in "just a little" wrong is going to fritter away the win rate. Please do not under estimate this concept. One bad hand - ONE - or one good one a night is Hero's entire < tiny > win for the session.

I think Hero's hand is a fold preflop. { very} Limited high potential. Low is often going to be second best and hard to fold once the pot gets large. Low can be counterfeited with no redraw. Playing this hand is a mistake, more so if Hero isn't planning to fold anything but the nut low. Maybe playing bottom set, but only for small bets.

So, what type of edge does Hero think he has in this hand? He is drawing to a flush that could win high and holds the nut low with no redraw. I guess that does qualify as a thin edge so long as the pot stays 5+ multiway. Thin is the operative word

The river action is a different situation. Hero has almost no chance the high and at risk for getting quartered. In my view hero's small edge has become a slight liability. I would not raise any bets on the river.

For what it is worth, I read the annoyed button as holding a nut low expecting to get quartered. But to the extent Hero believed his read, it is a sign hero doesn't have the edge he hoped to enjoy. If Hero can't win high but is at risk of getting counterfeited or quartered, perhaps he should slow down if there are less than five players in the hand.

Bottom line - - - there are five players willing to commit money to the pot. It seems more likely that not that someone else holds the same nut low. Hero is getting 1.25 units for every 1 unit he bets so long as he isn't counterfeited. Once someone folds this edge goes away. Hero is getting counterfeited something like 10% to 15% of the time. That leaves only a whisker thin edge for hero - something like $0.25 to $0.50 per bet before the rake.

DrStrange

PS Now I see the spoiler. I didn't give much credit to the risk of getting only a third of low. I should have - it is tiny risk but expensive. A $19 loss is two hours worth of grinding.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Yes. There is a lot of merit to the idea of passing small (perceived) edges. I used to play limit O8 (in a very loose game) somewhat regularly and would run into this all the time. I still run into it a fair amount in limit circus games, though it's often less straightforward than a bare nut low. In these games, unless you're somehow playing against pros, your profit is usually found by pushing large edges.

You had the made nut low and a draw that was probably not good, though, so this was not even a "small edge" type of spot. Based on the action, I could have told you the button had the nut low as well, and it appeared than V1 had the high (weird that he was so weak), so you were raising and reopening the action in a likely quartering situation. Button was probably getting visibly mad on purpose so you'd see him and take the clue to stop raising, because you were costing him and yourself money. It's one of those borderline collusion things high-low regs seem to like to do. Some will even start grumbling about duplicated hands and quartered pots with the action still open.

Also, as DrStrange noted (I haven't read the rest of his reply yet), is a very weak preflop holding. Limit O8 is 90% about picking very strong openers and avoiding getting involved when you don't have them. Play any other way, and you'll frequently find yourself over-invested in second-best hands and spots where you're getting quartered.

It's just the nature of the game. There's little to no benefit to deception and a lot of the advanced tools you use in other games. Just play your big A2xx and A23x hands, avoid anything with small pairs in it, and occasionally go for a monster high-type hand like KKQJ only in the most favorable spots (i.e., cheaply with multi-way action). Even AAxx hands aren't really good unless they have solid nut low potential. Meanwhile, your opponents will keep playing garbage like 2334 and paying you off with small sets, non-nut lows, and whatever other trap hands they catch.

I strongly recommend reading High-Low Split Poker for Advanced Players by Ray Zee. It's half O8 and half Stud 8, and a really helpful guide for limit high-low in particular.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Fixed limit game win rates are tiny relative to big bet games - great players win less than 4 big bets per hundred hands. Translate that to 1 or 2 big bets per hour. This is a dewy eyed best case sort of win rate at lower limits where the rake crushes your soul. Hero would be skilled not to lose money playing $4-$8, but you could "win" if you get enough free drinks.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

To be fair, I don't make my living from cards, and I play in this game once or twice monthly for the competition and the people. I try to make the best decisions possible (most of the time) and obviously, I'd prefer to finish the night with a profit - but it's not essential to the experience.

I don't expect I'll ever generate a large enough sample size to establish a statistically viable win-rate. In general, I win a little more than I lose over the course of a year, which is fine.

Hero needs to push small edges. This is where his/her entire win rate comes from. There is a flip side to this, getting money in "just a little" wrong is going to fritter away the win rate. Please do not under estimate this concept. One bad hand - ONE - or one good one a night is Hero's entire < tiny > win for the session.

This is good feedback. If you can't tell, this is as much an effort to plug small leaks as anything else. I'm always looking for ways to improve my game.

I think Hero's hand is a fold preflop. { very} Limited high potential. Low is often going to be second best and hard to fold once the pot gets large. Low can be counterfeited with no redraw. Playing this hand is a mistake, more so if Hero isn't planning to fold anything but the nut low. Maybe playing bottom set, but only for small bets.

In a nitty game I'd completely agree... even A22J with 2 clubs might be a fold. I maybe should have mentioned that this is a game where players routinely chase and call bets on late streets with weak lows and draws to non-nut-high hands... 3-way showdowns where someone comes up empty are pretty common. It's also often the case where there's a player in the game who has to table their hand at showdown only to require an explanation as to why they didn't win any of the pot. So the bare nut low is usually good for a small profit even when getting quartered due to all the dead money in the pot.

So, what type of edge does Hero think he has in this hand? He is drawing to a flush that could win high and holds the nut low with no redraw. I guess that does qualify as a thin edge so long as the pot stays 5+ multiway. Thin is the operative word

Maybe it's false logic on my end, but holding 23 is advantageous when an Ace hits the board, since many low hands will be counterfeited and at times will fold to aggression.

The river action is a different situation. Hero has almost no chance the high and at risk for getting quartered. In my view hero's small edge has become a slight liability. I would not raise any bets on the river.

Agreed. At that point I think the accelerator was stuck to the floor I think you can say the same for Villain one's aggression (open/3-bet the turn and river).

For what it is worth, I read the annoyed button as holding a nut low expecting to get quartered.

PS Now I see the spoiler. I didn't give much credit to the risk of getting only a third of low. I should have - it is tiny risk but expensive. A $19 loss is two hours worth of grinding.

I expected to get quartered and gave zero consideration to the possibility of getting sixthed. Neither did V1 for that matter. The button (arrogant guy) was irritated with me that I bet him off his pair of aces, which would have been good enough to win the high. That alone might have been worth 19 bucks

 

[FDLmold]

Fold preflop. That is trash full ring.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Oof... 223Jccc is hardly worth limping for half the bet from the small blind let alone calling in early to mid position. But calling a raise cold pre flop? Yikes... Then jamming it post flop? You can maybe justify putting in a raise on that flop, but as soon as you get played back at, and by multiple opponents, it's time to realize you're likely getting quartered and that your flush draw is no good for high. A jack high flush draw is not something you want in O8. It should only ever be a backup plan. Your raise on the turn is pretty bad though. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what you should be trying to do in an O8 game.

Sorry if this message is coming off harshly, but I believe you're looking for honest feedback, so I'd rather not sugar coat it.

 

[RainmanTrail]

As for pushing small edges in general, it really depends on the spot and even the game. In Razz, it can often be a costly mistake to push small edges as it turns your hand face up and allows the fish to shake off the hook in later streets.

In Omaha, this can happen as well, but it's less important. But it's the reason that a lot of strong O8 players will limp A23 in early position because they want weaker players chasing A4 and 23 low thinking it might be good, whereas if they had raised it instead, those hands might have just folded. Remember, your goal is get your opponents to make as many mistakes as possible. In O8, that generally manifests itself in the form of them chasing weak draws when they should have folded. If you build up a big pot with what you think is a very small edge, you're making their mistakes less costly on later streets by giving them better pot odds and thus making them play more correctly. That doesn't mean you should never raise obviously, but there's a balance and an art to when it's best to extract value, especially in O8.

 

[RainmanTrail]

As a fun exercise, here are some other hands you should be folding on that  flop when it gets raised in a multi way pot, which almost no one ever folds...

A75T
A8JJ
2h3hKhQs
77KK
9TJQ
A24Q
A46K
A346

 

[Moxie Mike]

Sorry if this message is coming off harshly, but I believe you're looking for honest feedback, so I'd rather not sugar coat it.

I appreciate all the feedback. Nothing harsh about direct advice - I don't need an enabler for fundamentally bad play.

So what about the philosophy that the majority of a player's profit in split pot games comes from the dead money that commits and eventually folds/comes up empty at showdown? Don't we want to make it as expensive as possible for them to draw even if by jamming we're incentivizing them to continuing drawing on later streets?

 

[Jimulacrum]

I appreciate all the feedback. Nothing harsh about direct advice - I don't need an enabler for fundamentally bad play.

So what about the philosophy that the majority of a player's profit in split pot games comes from the dead money that commits and eventually folds/comes up empty at showdown? Don't we want to make it as expensive as possible for them to draw even if by jamming we're incentivizing them to continuing drawing on later streets?

Yes and no.

We want to get as much money in the pot as possible when we're very strong for half or more of the pot. In NLHE study groups, this often translates to making one opponent pay as much as possible to draw, but it looks different in a loose FLO8 game.

In O8, you have to think about what produces the biggest pots with the most dead money. Generally, if you have players who will see the flop with almost anything, you want to let them do that. If your raise will scare people off, then don't. The theoretical money you make from that preflop raise against a thinned-out field is peanuts compared to the mistakes you'll see post-flop in a family pot. Allow them to play all manner of garbage cheaply (including hands like your 223J), and they will hang themselves for a lot of bets when they're drawing slim or dead later in the hand.

The sequence of the raises is important too. If 4 players call the BB, you can expect to get a series of calls if you raise from BTN. However, if you are UTG+1 and raise, you may shut out the field because they're not even in for 1 bet yet. Sometimes you'll want that, and sometimes you'll want to rope more players in. Depends on the particulars of the hand.

In the example you gave, starting from the flop, you want to rope people in for extra bets because you're likely drawing at half or less. Seldom will you want to put in a lot of raises with a nut low with no counterfeit protection, and a very weak high draw (which a jack-high flush draw is). A hand like that needs extra players as insurance against quartering. You may even want to fold it sometimes, if there's a bet and a raise or more to you. No sense in getting invested as a likely quarter-winner when there's only a small pot to chase anyway. (Play some PLO8 and these lessons will grab you by the balls very quickly.)

You make money in a loose FLO8 game by playing a small number of very high-quality hands and winning mountainous multi-way pots with them. It's that simple. Very different from Hold'em strategy, but it's quite easy if you can swing the discipline.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies. They are appreciated.

Not to drag the conversation out any longer, but I also am interested in your opinion on the concept of blockers. In the hand I described, I held a blocker to the nut low and 3 blocking clubs - meaning that flush draws were drawing thinner than they realized. This is how I justified putting in so many bets on the flop and turn... figuring that those players will fold the busted draws while also assuming my low was 1) less likely to be counterfeited and 2) less likely to get sixthed at showdown.

How sound is this thinking? Personally I've found that considering blockers during the course of a hand in general to be of marginal value - however it's highly possible I'm just misapplying the concept.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Limit O8 is 90% about picking very strong openers and avoiding getting involved when you don't have them.

A’s. Don’t leave home without one.

 

[DrStrange]

Let's be clear. Hero's blockers were worth less than zero. They do not contribute to Hero's high hand value, though they were a significant handicap for the better flush draws.

Why so valueless? Why does hero care who wins high if it is not him? "Using up" precious cards to block a draw that doesn't change hero's share of the pot is pointless. These blocking cards wasted slots that could have added to Hero's high hand equity rather than moved equity from one villain to another.

What Hero should be aware of is cards that block his own draws for high are bad for him. Three clubs in hand are blocking the flush draw and thus devalue the hand. Cards that block counterfeiting and quartering are good. Three to a flush is a demerit in my hand valuations. Not fatal, but a serious wart for sure.

By the way - - this discussion is revealing a potential leak for Hero to consider. He seems to have a lot of energy focused on button, how button feels and finding "value" in keeping button out of the winner's circle. One data point is not all that much. But I suggest hero think about why so much focus is on a player who makes no difference to Hero's low end of the hand.

DrStrange

 

[Moxie Mike]

Why does hero care who wins high if it is not him?

I know V1's game a lot better than that of the button. V1's LAG style gets spewey as the game goes on, especially when he's running good. I'm not going to say my betting patterns were deliberately designed to squeeze out the button for this reason, but I can state with certainty that V1 is easier to extract bets from as the night goes on.

FWIW, I expected V1 to table a set of aces. His betting pattern (from past experience with him) suggested he (knowing my aggressive style) would raise. Granted I shouldn't have indulged him here, but for him to have a set and the nut low here seemed pretty remote. Also keep in mind that aside from the EP limper's open on the flop, V1 and I were the only aggressors on every street. So while I sort of expected to get quartered, in the back of my mind I knew there was at least some (small) chance I'd win the low outright. I was actually SHOCKED when V1 tabled his hand after that betting pattern. The possibility that he'd win the high wasn't something he even considered - he said as much afterwards.

I fully acknowledge that I played the hand poorly from start to finish and I'll learn from the experience and from this discussion... but there is some method to my thought process - flawed as it might be.

What Hero should be aware of is cards that block his own draws for high are bad for him. Three clubs in hand are blocking the flush draw and thus devalue the hand. Cards that block counterfeiting and quartering are good. Three to a flush is a demerit in my hand valuations. Not fatal, but a serious wart for sure.

I appreciate the remarks, but I assure you just because I played this hand poorly I'm generally not that bad of a player. As I reflect on the valuable insights shared here today, there's something that's occurred to me... and that's that I've failed to make the adjustments from the shorthanded games I usually play to full ring.

By the way - - this discussion is revealing a potential leak for Hero to consider. He seems to have a lot of energy focused on button, how button feels and finding "value" in keeping button out of the winner's circle. One data point is not all that much. But I suggest hero think about why so much focus is on a player who makes no difference to Hero's low end of the hand.

DrStrange

This was the only time I've spent any significant amount of time playing against the button. I described him the way I did in the OP mostly for entertainment purposes and not because it's relevant to the discussion. In the metagame sense, there may be some value in the fact that he'll probably remember this hand and may even play differently against me in the future. In fairness, after the showdown he was totally justified to be annoyed with me - in reversed roles I'd be irritated too.

 

[RainmanTrail]

You are correct in thinking that it is less likely that your opponents will also make nut low to quarter you when you hold a pair of 2s (there are only 6 remaining 23 combos for them to have now as opposed to the 9 combos they could have if you didn't have the extra 2), but at what cost? A 33% improvement in the area of not getting quartered comes at the cost of you not having another low card for counterfeit protection, which is far more important. If you had 234 here instead of 223, you'd have a much stronger hand.

You're also correct that holding 3 clubs in your hands makes it slightly less likely that you're up against someone with a higher flush draw, but again, at what cost? It's harder for you to hit your flush too.

But the action in the hand speaks volumes about what the other players have. As soon as people start jamming and 5 players hang around on this type of board, you should immediately know what they all have or at least be able to guess pretty closely. When I read your hand description, I immediately knew you were getting at most a quarter of the pot when you talked about the guy who was getting irritated by your raises. >90% of the time, that's someone who has nut low. It's a dead giveaway. They know you're jamming with 23 as well and they're not happy about it because they think you should know better.

 

[Highli99]

Great insights in this thread. I am new to O8 but am coming to love it. So many intricacies.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Fixed limit game win rates are tiny relative to big bet games - great players win less than 4 big bets per hundred hands. Translate that to 1 or 2 big bets per hour. This is a dewy eyed best case sort of win rate at lower limits where the rake crushes your soul. Hero would be skilled not to lose money playing $4-$8, but you could "win" if you get enough free drinks.

I've heard you say this, or something similar, a few times. Are you speaking with respect to online win rates or live play?

I've put in millions of hands in limit games over the course of my poker career, most of those in low and mid stakes games. I almost never played NL games, I was primarily a limit game cash specialist. I ran at ~3BB/100 (big bets not big blinds) in limit games online, but live games are much softer. I've been averaging over 14BB/100 at stakes from 4/8 to 20/40 in O8 games over the past 5 years as a casual player. I don't have the data in front of me right now for my prior years, but it was in a similar ballpark when I was playing O8 full time. Live 4/8 games are not just beatable they're very much crushable if you're a strong player.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Meanwhile, your opponents will keep playing garbage like 2334

While it's not a premium holding, there are spots where 2334 is a fine hand to play. Especially in games that are frequently multi-way limp-fests with droolers who will pay off with 4th nut lows or let you freeroll them when the flop is A56 and they can't fold their A5xx because I have two pair hurr-durr! (provided you're able to fold when you whiff, of course).

Or in late position after a lot of folds (since it's more likely that an Ace will flop)

 

[Highli99]

I've heard you say this, or something similar, a few times. Are you speaking with respect to online win rates or live play?

I've put in millions of hands in limit games over the course of my poker career, most of those in low and mid stakes games. I almost never played NL games, I was primarily a limit game cash specialist. I ran at ~3BB/100 (big bets not big blinds) in limit games online, but live games are much softer. I've been averaging over 14BB/100 at stakes from 4/8 to 20/40 in O8 games over the past 5 years as a casual player. I don't have the data in front of me right now for my prior years, but it was in a similar ballpark when I was playing O8 full time. Live 4/8 games are not just beatable they're very much crushable if you're a strong player.

Any books you recommend for improving O8 play?

 

[Anthony Martino]

Any books you recommend for improving O8 play?

I think one I found pretty good was Mike Cappelletti's How To Win At Omaha Hi/Lo Split Poker, but it was 100 years ago I read it

 

[FDLmold]

The standard hi/lo split book I recommend is High Low Split Poker by Ray Zee. Once you have those fundamentals, and most of the information is still relevant, you can find youtube vids and things to enhance your knowledge.

Or you can use Scotty Nguyen's advice, and just play a hand only if it has an A in it. Kinda like @DoubleEagle said a few posts up from mine.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Any books you recommend for improving O8 play?

Unfortunately, no I don't. I bought Mike Cappellettis book and Tom McEvoys book a long time ago, but after playing against McEvoy numerous times I realized that his book probably wasn't worth reading (he's a winning player, but he still has several leaks).

I used to coach O8 for pokerstrategy.com and Stoxpoker/CardRunners back in the day. You can still find some of my videos there if you want to watch them. But I can probably get you 80% of the way there just by giving you a few simple to follow rules. For a game as complex as O8 is, it's actually surprisingly easy and simple to become a winning player at it. I think in large part because there's not a lot of good learning resources out there for it like there is for Holdem. In fact, I'd say it's the easiest game to beat if all the regularly played poker variants on offer.

When I get more time, maybe I'll post an O8 strategy thread for those who are interested in improving their O8 game. But it's posts like this that make people roll their eyes at me and call me a blowhard, so I don't know if it's really worth it for me. I'm hated enough as is around here. I told myself I wasn't going to participate in the strategy threads, but for some reason I keep doing it lol. Perhaps it's a better conversation for PM.

 

[Moxie Mike]

I used to coach O8 for pokerstrategy.com and Stoxpoker/CardRunners back in the day.

When I get more time, maybe I'll post an O8 strategy thread for those who are interested in improving their O8 game. But it's posts like this that make people roll their eyes at me and call me a blowhard, so I don't know if it's really worth it for me. I'm hated enough as is around here. I told myself I wasn't going to participate in the strategy threads, but for some reason I keep doing it lol. Perhaps it's a better conversation for PM.

I hope you do.

Personally, I'm interested in plugging leaks in my FL O8 game. Back in the PartyPoker days, I used to be a winning PLO8 player. Then I discovered shorthanded and all the fundamentally improper shit you could get away with in SH games. Unfortunately, I think that's led to some bad habits that corrupted my overall mindset, which a coincidental good run of cards might have enabled even further.

Ironically enough, I can switch between SH and FR NLHE games pretty flawlessly.

As to you being a 'blowhard' or that you're 'hated enough' - I don't know what you're basing that on or whether that's actually true or not but I for one appreciate you taking the time to comment multiple times on this discussion.

 

[FDLmold]

When I get more time, maybe I'll post an O8 strategy thread for those who are interested in improving their O8 game.

Count me interested. I call PLO8 at least once a night in my dealer's choice cash game because even though I am just ok, my players chase TRASH. We had a capped pot once on the turn, three all ins, I had low locked with three cards (something like A24x on a 378 board) and needed a heart for the nut flush to scoop. One guy had two pair and no low. The third had an even worse high and a trash low. I'll take that all night!

 

[RainmanTrail]

Count me interested. I call PLO8 at least once a night in my dealer's choice cash game because even though I am just ok, my players chase TRASH. We had a capped pot once on the turn, three all ins, I had low locked with three cards (something like A24x on a 378 board) and needed a heart for the nut flush to scoop. One guy had two pair and no low. The third had an even worse high and a trash low. I'll take that all night!

I can't confidently claim to be able to help you with PLO8. I don't play it often enough. I've had good results with it but I can only give gut feel advice that would only be directionally accurate at best and would likely contain some leaky advice as well.

To clarify, I would only claim to be an expert at full ring limit O8. I rarely play it short handed and rarely play other variants of Omaha.

 

[Jimulacrum]

While it's not a premium holding, there are spots where 2334 is a fine hand to play. Especially in games that are frequently multi-way limp-fests with droolers who will pay off with 4th nut lows or let you freeroll them when the flop is A56 and they can't fold their A5xx because I have two pair hurr-durr! (provided you're able to fold when you whiff, of course).

Or in late position after a lot of folds (since it's more likely that an Ace will flop)

I'll concede that it's a marginal hand rather than total trash.

Anything with a tiny pair in it is essentially a three-card hand, though. I'm not above playing aceless hands with 23, but the other two cards should also be helping me out, not essentially blanks that are only good for making bottom set that will win half the pot 1% of the time.

 

[Moxie Mike]

I can't confidently claim to be able to help you with PLO8. I don't play it often enough. I've had good results with it but I can only give gut feel advice that would only be directionally accurate at best and would likely contain some leaky advice as well.

To clarify, I would only claim to be an expert at full ring limit O8. I rarely play it short handed and rarely play other variants of Omaha.

If you decide to do this, one concept that I think people would benefit from is at which thresholds certain (marginal) starting hands become playable. For example, A899 with no suits is junk... but what if the ace is suited? Still a no? What if the ace is suited in late position after 4 limpers?

 

[DrStrange]

Back in the day I kept a crib card with a scoring system for O8 hand selection. That is long gone with the death of on-line poker, but I have some rules of thumb.

High only hands are marginal. Play them cheaply and in position. Only the cream of the crop should be automatic starting hands - no cards less than a ten, nut flush draw, couple of big pairs. Pairs that don't make top set are dubious. Pairs that make bottom set are traps.

Low hands should only be A2, A3, 23. Yes it a third or fourth low card is good - the lower the better. Suited ace plus a two or three is great. Pocket aces plus a two or three is good. Having a face card plus three wheel cards is good.

Hands that can't expect to scoop the pot should be avoided unless the low draw is powerful. You can essentially always play a dry A2 at a typical loose table. Be mindful such a dry hand is fragile.

Expect to fold preflop a lot. VPiP 20% or less at a full ring table. That means folding 80%+ of the hands. The higher the rake, the more selective you should be

Folds are your friend. Lots of trouble can be avoided by folding marginal hands. i.e. As8s99 is trash. 2s23Js is marginal at best.

When in doubt, fold preflop. Rack up and go home when you start getting bored.

Really, fold most of the time -=- DrStrange

 

[v1pe]

Back in the day I kept a crib card with a scoring system for O8 hand selection. That is long gone with the death of on-line poker, but I have some rules of thumb.

High only hands are marginal. Play them cheaply and in position. Only the cream of the crop - no cards less than a ten, nut flush draw, couple of big pairs. Pairs that don't make top set are dubious. Pairs that make bottom set are traps.

Low hands should only be A2, A3, 23. Yes it a third or fourth low card is good - the lower the better. Suited ace plus a two or three is great. Pocket aces plus a two or three is good. Having a face card plus three wheel cards is good.

Hands that can't expect to scoop the pot should be avoided unless the low draw is powerful. You can essentially always play a dry A2 at a typical loose table. Be mindful such a dry hand is fragile.

Expect to fold preflop a lot. VPiP 20% or less at a full ring table. That means folding 80%+ of the hands. The higher the rake, the more selective you should be

Folds are your friend. Lots of trouble can be avoided by folding marginal hands. i.e. As8s99 is trash. 2s23Js is marginal at best.

When in doubt, fold preflop. Rack up and go home when you start getting bored.

Really, fold most of the time -=- DrStrange

I have never really played limit poker, but I feel like you can be infinitely tighter vs a NL game.

I you play too much like a nit in a NL game, everyone is going to easily see that you are only playing the top of their range, giving them an easy situation to just fold and live to fight another day. But in limit, the longer the hand goes on the better price you're laid to draw, and it's a lot easier to call in marginal spots if you know you can't lose your roll.

Is that a correct assumption?

I'm interested in a strategy thread @RainmanTrail, would subscribe.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Back in the day I kept a crib card with a scoring system for O8 hand selection. That is long gone with the death of on-line poker, but I have some rules of thumb.

High only hands are marginal. Play them cheaply and in position. Only the cream of the crop - no cards less than a ten, nut flush draw, couple of big pairs. Pairs that don't make top set are dubious. Pairs that make bottom set are traps.

Low hands should only be A2, A3, 23. Yes it a third or fourth low card is good - the lower the better. Suited ace plus a two or three is great. Pocket aces plus a two or three is good. Having a face card plus three wheel cards is good.

Hands that can't expect to scoop the pot should be avoided unless the low draw is powerful. You can essentially always play a dry A2 at a typical loose table. Be mindful such a dry hand is fragile.

Expect to fold preflop a lot. VPiP 20% or less at a full ring table. That means folding 80%+ of the hands. The higher the rake, the more selective you should be

Folds are your friend. Lots of trouble can be avoided by folding marginal hands. i.e. As8s99 is trash. 2s23Js is marginal at best.

When in doubt, fold preflop. Rack up and go home when you start getting bored.

Really, fold most of the time -=- DrStrange

Solid advice all-around. Playing tight preflop is not just a style you might do well with. It's an absolute necessity.

A lot of students of poker get used to the idea that there's more than one correct way to play most hands. This is often true in NLHE and in big-bet games generally.

But in full-ring FLO8, forget about it. The correct plays are usually straightforward and inflexible. Once in a while you'll find spots where you're ambivalent about calling versus raising, but there are almost no spots where you can get creative and play a bad starting hand profitably because you're more skilled or whatever.

That said, your skill will hit a plateau much more quickly than in other games. You can only get so good at no fold'em O8. All you're really doing is playing a simple, fundamentally sound game while the donkeys around you fill your pockets. Thankfully, donkeys love O8 because they get to win a piece of the pot so often, even if they're gradually seeping all their chips to the guy who folds 8 hands an orbit.