Tourney Full stack, or Blind them out - League Tournaments (1 Viewer)

Should a player in a league setting receive a full stack in a single rebuy LEAGUE tournament

  • Yes

    Votes: 11 73.3%
  • No

    Votes: 4 26.7%

  • Total voters
    15

krafticus

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So,
(a little background)
For those that don't know, I host a 30-max tournament each month that doubles as a league.. There is no up front cost to join and you can play as many, or as few, games as you would like. $10 is pulled from each buy in and rebuy (1 per person until 1st break). I use a formula ( (ROUND(LOG((#of buy ins & rebuys+5)/rank,10)*100,0)*15)*2) + 100 for each bounty) to calculate points for each person. 1st out usually gets about 400 points, whereas the winner gets roughly 5000 points. I add all of the points together over the course of 11 months, and this equates to your starting stack at the final game. There is roughly 3000 to payout for the final game (top 30 players). I also provide a 1k bonus (T10k starting stacks) for an on-time bonus.

This is our 1st year back after about a 3-4 year break (family issues). This year, I started allowing 1 rebuy per person prior to the 1st break. Your stack needs to be gone in order to rebuy. At the same time, I also don't put the chips on the table until the player arrives (prior to the 1st break). Once the arrive, they receive a full stack. Some players aren't too happy that very late players come in with a full stack, while others prefer that. Most of my late players have non-traditional jobs that require them to arrive late, and I know the full stack keeps them coming. I was planning on keeping it that way, but with a few complaints, I figured I would ask the community their thoughts on the matter.

I know I can make the rules how I see fit, but would like to hear your thoughts.

Also, anyone local (on in town on the 1st Saturday of the month) looking for a seat, you are more than welcome to join in; even if for only 1 game.

Mark
 
Full stack. Try to convince the complainers that they are getting more big blinds for their $ by showing up on time. If that doesn’t work just shrug.
 
We do the same thing. Late players can join through the first three 20 min levels and get a full stack. We used to blind stacks off but we got fed up with all the mis-deals when forgetting to deal to the empty seats.

Some players hold the opinion that there is some advantage to arriving late. However, if you look at the number of big blinds received by each player starting at each level, you will see the late arriving player does incur a substantial penalty. Our starting stacks are 8,000 plus 2,000 bonus for arriving at least 10 min before the start. Examples:

Early buy-in Level 1, blinds 25/50: $10,000 starting stack, 200 big blinds.
Late arrival Level 1, blinds 25/50: $8,000 starting stack, 160 big blinds.
Late arrival Level 2, blinds 50/100: $8,000 starting stack, 80 big blinds.
Late arrival Level 3, blinds 75/150: $8,000 starting stack, 53 big blinds.

Therefore, based on the size of the big blind, players arriving during level 3 only get the equivalent of 27% of the chips players received with an early buy-in bonus. This reduction in the number of big blinds will dramatically affect the number of hands a player will receive if he does not win some pots.

Some players believe that players arriving late have an advantage because they have not incurred the risk of losing any chips. However, it can also be said they have not had the same opportunity to win pots and increase the size of their stack.

During re-entry tournaments, players choosing to re-entry always get a full stack. Is there any difference between late arrivals and re-entry players since they are both effectively starting the tournament late?

Further, we do not limit the number of re-entries. Generally, mutiple re-entries are by our least skilled players. Why would we not want to accept their money?
 
So,
(a little background)
For those that don't know, I host a 30-max tournament each month that doubles as a league.. There is no up front cost to join and you can play as many, or as few, games as you would like. $10 is pulled from each buy in and rebuy (1 per person until 1st break). I use a formula ( (ROUND(LOG((#of buy ins & rebuys+5)/rank,10)*100,0)*15)*2) + 100 for each bounty) to calculate points for each person. 1st out usually gets about 400 points, whereas the winner gets roughly 5000 points. I add all of the points together over the course of 11 months, and this equates to your starting stack at the final game. There is roughly 3000 to payout for the final game (top 30 players). I also provide a 1k bonus (T10k starting stacks) for an on-time bonus.

This is our 1st year back after about a 3-4 year break (family issues). This year, I started allowing 1 rebuy per person prior to the 1st break. Your stack needs to be gone in order to rebuy. At the same time, I also don't put the chips on the table until the player arrives (prior to the 1st break). Once the arrive, they receive a full stack. Some players aren't too happy that very late players come in with a full stack, while others prefer that. Most of my late players have non-traditional jobs that require them to arrive late, and I know the full stack keeps them coming. I was planning on keeping it that way, but with a few complaints, I figured I would ask the community their thoughts on the matter.

I know I can make the rules how I see fit, but would like to hear your thoughts.

Also, anyone local (on in town on the 1st Saturday of the month) looking for a seat, you are more than welcome to join in; even if for only 1 game.

Mark

Who has complained? Just explain to them, that much like any rebuys, they start with a full stack.
 
TDA rules:
7: Alternates, Late Registration, & Re-Entries A: Alternates, players registering late, and re-entries will be sold full stacks. They will randomly draw a seat and table by the same process and from the same seat pool then in place for new players and are dealt in except between the small blind and button.
© Copyright 2017: All Rights Reserved, Poker Tournament Directors Association. See use policy at PokerTDA.com.
B: In re-entry events, if a player is permitted to forfeit chips and buy a new stack, the forfeited chips will be removed from play.

Anything different is a violation of standardly accepted rules, and can be viewed as an angle-shoot by the host who will never be late for his own event.
 
I'm in a closed, freeze-out league. 12 tournaments, 9 players. We all know where the tourneys will be held, when the tournaments start, and all agreed to blind down the stacks until the first break. If they haven't arrived by the first break then the stack is removed from the table and they aren't permitted in. In a closed league like this with a fixed purpose and where we all knew and agreed to the rules, I'm totally okay with blinding folks out like this.

Your situation is different in a couple ways, though. It sounds like it's open to the first 30 people whoever they may be, and that money is paid at each tournament. I don't see why a full stack shouldn't be given to the first 30 people that show up and buy in, nor do I understand any significant complaint about folks receiving a "full stack" at a later blind level than 1 (because their "full stack" is now short multiple blinds from when the on-time arrivals started).
 
TDA rules:


Anything different is a violation of standardly accepted rules, and can be viewed as an angle-shoot by the host who will never be late for his own event.
Not entirely. There is no violation of rules if late entries are not allowed.

Nothing wrong with requiring registration or confirmation beforehand (via email, phone, or text), and setting out those player-identified stacks at tournament start to be appropriately blinded out.

Allowing late registration (getting full stacks) isn't the same as late arrivals who were preregistered (whose stacks can be blinded out).

If I don't know you're coming beforehand (simple RSVP courtesy, thank you), don't bother just showing up late unannounced and hope you get a full stack. Not happening....
 
I'm in a closed, freeze-out league. 12 tournaments, 9 players. We all know where the tourneys will be held, when the tournaments start, and all agreed to blind down the stacks until the first break. If they haven't arrived by the first break then the stack is removed from the table and they aren't permitted in. In a closed league like this with a fixed purpose and where we all knew and agreed to the rules, I'm totally okay with blinding folks out like this.

Your situation is different in a couple ways, though. It sounds like it's open to the first 30 people whoever they may be, and that money is paid at each tournament. I don't see why a full stack shouldn't be given to the first 30 people that show up and buy in, nor do I understand any significant complaint about folks receiving a "full stack" at a later blind level than 1 (because their "full stack" is now short multiple blinds from when the on-time arrivals started).

The poll question isn’t really correct, and I can’t fix it. It was supposed to include “For Late Entry”
 
For the record, all of my late players let me know they are running late, so that isn’t usually an issue. Most let me know days in advance. I have one player who is always an hour late, but I know her situation, and it’s all good. Some let me know closer to game time, which is also fine.

Mark
 
Then those aren't techically late entries, depending on how you want to define the event.

Personally, I'm an on-time guy, and people who arrive late should not be given the opportunity to start with a larger stack than somebody who has been there from the start and played zero hands.

Blinding out all stacks is fair to everyone. Don't like it? Be on time, end-of-story.
 
Then those aren't techically late entries, depending on how you want to define the event.

Personally, I'm an on-time guy, and people who arrive late should not be given the opportunity to start with a larger stack than somebody who has been there from the start and played zero hands.

Blinding out all stacks is fair to everyone. Don't like it? Be on time, end-of-story.

As mentioned, some players have non-traditional jobs, and just can’t be on time. I’d rather them come late then not at all.
 
Nothing stopping them from coming late, unless by choice. Why should the latecomers get preferential treatment over those on time? Making all stacks pay blinds as appropriate is NOT unfair.
 
Not entirely. There is no violation of rules if late entries are not allowed.

Nothing wrong with requiring registration or confirmation beforehand (via email, phone, or text), and setting out those player-identified stacks at tournament start to be appropriately blinded out.

Allowing late registration (getting full stacks) isn't the same as late arrivals who were preregistered (whose stacks can be blinded out).

If I don't know you're coming beforehand (simple RSVP courtesy, thank you), don't bother just showing up late unannounced and hope you get a full stack. Not happening....

I would not argue against no late entries. It is a hassle for a host who is also playing. Even a bigger hassle if it requires another table (which I would simply say "no". Late entries are taking a risk.

That said, I have had a player that was very dependable, and would run down to the wire because of a previous commitment. I would not want them driving unsafely to try and get a full stack. I don't think anyone wants that. So pay full buy-in, get full buy-in.

I think this is a case where we will always be of differing opinions. It just so happens that this is the one time where I have standard rules on my side.
 
I have a waitlist that I cap to 4 deep. The game starts with full stacks on the table. If you have a spot and you’re going to be late - you have two options. Venmo me the buyin and you’ll get the on-time bonus, or pay when you arrive, and you don’t. Either way you’re being blinded off. Now if you no-show - chips removed and a waitlist gets a full stack. I have a one month penalty for no-shows, so far it’s never happened.

TL;DR - I blind off stacks.
 
Don't deal to the dead stacks. Too much of a pain, too many misdeals, and every poker room in the free world gives late players a full stack these days. That said, I have on time bonus chips and any half decent player also knows there are positives and negatives to starting later - the chips are worth less, but early levels in a deep stack event aren't nearly as meaningful. Regardless, we start exactly on time.
 
I look at it this way...

...if I'm at my seat and simply refuse to play until right before the late-entry period is over, I don't get to keep my blinds, do I?
...if I'm in the room but simply refuse to pay and play until right before the late-entry period is over, do I get a full stack? If so, how is that different than the person who pays early and refuses to play?
...if I'm sitting in my car in front of the house and simply refuse to come in until right before the late-entry period is over, do I get a full stack? If so, how is that different than the person who shows up on time and simply refuses to pay and play until right before the late-entry period is over?

Maybe some people don't have a problem with a player who shows up and waits to pay and play until he feels like it, but I don't see this as being very sportsmanlike. In fact, depending on how seats are assigned to late entries, it could be used to identify and select an advantageous seat in smaller tournaments. I think the only fair way to protect all players is to say, the tournament starts at a specific time and all players get a specific stack at that time. If you show up late, you received a full stack, but in your absence, we took chips from it based on what you would have paid in forced bets.
 
Yeah I've never been in the situation but removing blinds from the stack (without them going to the other players) seems fairest. That way you avoid "same player gets the blinds every time" syndrome.
 
I look at it this way...

...if I'm at my seat and simply refuse to play until right before the late-entry period is over, I don't get to keep my blinds, do I?
...if I'm in the room but simply refuse to pay and play until right before the late-entry period is over, do I get a full stack? If so, how is that different than the person who pays early and refuses to play?
...if I'm sitting in my car in front of the house and simply refuse to come in until right before the late-entry period is over, do I get a full stack? If so, how is that different than the person who shows up on time and simply refuses to pay and play until right before the late-entry period is over?

Maybe some people don't have a problem with a player who shows up and waits to pay and play until he feels like it, but I don't see this as being very sportsmanlike. In fact, depending on how seats are assigned to late entries, it could be used to identify and select an advantageous seat in smaller tournaments. I think the only fair way to protect all players is to say, the tournament starts at a specific time and all players get a specific stack at that time. If you show up late, you received a full stack, but in your absence, we took chips from it based on what you would have paid in forced bets.

When you pay your money, you start the contest. What hands you play, or where you go, or how you play it... that's up to you. The TDA rule though, is extremely clear. Late buy ins get a full stack.

But I get it. Some players arrive late. Maybe they don't like you enough to hang out early. Maybe they don't like you enough to even be there on time. I guess if that is a common problem that you face, you have to make some changes. Afterall, it is inconvenient to buy someone in and give them a full stack after the game is underway. Even more irritating when you know they show late because they don't like you.
 
(ROUND(LOG((#of buy ins & rebuys+5)/rank,10)*100,0)*15)*2) + 100

Hey I remember logarithmic functions, mad respect, sir.

There is no up front cost to join and you can play as many, or as few, games as you would like. $10 is pulled from each buy in and rebuy (1 per person until 1st break.)

This is a great structure, imo. Flexible commitment but rewards showing up.

Same. If rebuys - I allow “late registration” full stack up until rebuy period ends.

I tend to agree with this logic as well.

players hold the opinion that there is some advantage to arriving late. However, if you look at the number of big blinds received by each player starting at each level, you will see the late arriving player does incur a substantial penalty.

This makes total sense to me and it's surprising this isn't the prevailing wisdom.

A friend was going to stake me in a regional main event last year as a last minute thing (couple hours before the last flight) but it was already oversold and taking alternates. We figured if it would be 5-6 levels before I would get seated it wasn't worth entering.

But yes late stacks pay a penalty, I get there can be some question as to whether that penalty is still more favorable than the risk of playing (I say no), but losing level time and effective big blinds is a thing.

Now if you are having trouble getting fields to show on time I think other suggestions for on time bonuses and what not are acceptable, but if you have enough players to deal at a time acceptable to you then these measures seem more like a solution in search of a problem.
 
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