Full Ring Tournament Hand UTG (1 Viewer)

[JMC9389]

I haven't been as active as of late here, but I thought this hand and subsequent decision making process was interesting to chew on looking back at it.

This hand was over a month ago so I'm going to try and recall by memory.

Anyway, the game is a full ring, 10 players, T10000 starting stacks, blinds are 75/150 in the second to last level before rebuys. Hero has about 8800 left in his stack, not really getting many playable hands do far. The rest of the table is hovering around starting stack except for one player that's been on an early run sitting around 16000.

Hero is the first to look at their cards and looks down at

Hero?

 

[Eriks]

I guess this first decision isn’t what you’re getting at but I’d open to whatever the standard open has been

 

[JMC9389]

I guess this first decision isn’t what you’re getting at but I’d open to whatever the standard open has been

Just to follow in the spirit of the thread, I go step by step, but yes, this is a very standard spot to open 10 handed.

Hero raises to 450. Folds around until HJ, who's a pretty tight player, bumps it up to 1k. The high stack mentioned in the OP who's on the button in this hand cold calls. Blinds fold.

Hero?

 

[Eriks]

I suppose the prudent thing is to flat. We will probably be put in some awkward spots postflop 3-ways, but it would be kinda terrible to 4-bet and get shoved on.

 

[MrCatPants]

4 bet or fold - you're going to be out of position against two players and you'll effectively be set mining.

What do we know about the 3 bettor and the button flatter? What are the stack sizes - do both have you covered?

 

[Senzrock]

Vs this player profile, you shouldn't have too wide of a 4bet range so JJ probably falls into our raise/call range theoretically. Now, as it is still in the rebuy stage, I don't think you could go wrong just 4bet getting it in here with JJ but understand if you are trying to play every hand optimally, then you flat here. The problem is, are we thinking we are set mining with JJ? Because we are oop the entire hand vs a "tight player" so it feels like we are just folding a ton of flops here. If we get the T74 and villain bets large, we have to continue... it's just a tough spot.

 

[Josh Kifer]

 

[raynmanas]

blinds are 75/150 in the second to last level before rebuys

Hero raises to 450. Folds around until HJ, who's a pretty tight player, bumps it up to 1k. The high stack mentioned in the OP who's on the button in this hand cold calls. Blinds fold.

Hero?

this is a rebuy tournament? shove.

 

[JMC9389]

4 bet or fold - you're going to be out of position against two players and you'll effectively be set mining.

What do we know about the 3 bettor and the button flatter? What are the stack sizes - do both have you covered?

Three bettor is a good player, tight, aggressive pre and post flop with the propensity to lead out after a preflop bet or raise. Almost never checking a flop in which he was the aggressor preflop.

I have little information on the button as this was my first time playing with him. I got a lot more information on him later on in the night, but in the moment with this hand occurring, he looked to be a player that liked to get involved in a lot of hands, loose with aggressive tendencies preflop but a bit more passive post flop. He built up his stack with a couple of early monsters.

Both players have me covered.

 

[LeLe]

I hate playing JJ when someone 3 bet UTG Raise and another one cold call.

If you think the odd to set mining is good enough, call

if not fold is a good choice too.

 

[Senzrock]

I hate playing JJ when someone 3 bet UTG Raise and another one cold call.

If you think the odd to set mining is good enough, call

if not fold is a good choice too.

Please don’t ever fold JJ here.

 

[upNdown]

this is a rebuy tournament? shove.

Yeah. I think with the cold caller, and being out of position, this is probably a reraise. And since it’s a rebuy, I think it might be an easy reraise, a d given the stack sizes, it’s a shove.
Hate to reduce a perfectly good strategy thread to a preflop jam, but it just makes the most sense. I figure we should only get called by AA or KK, and if anything else wants to call, we’re comfortably ahead (except QQ of course.) And if AA or KK happen to be out there, they’re going to at least cripple us on a flop with no overs, right? Just seems like a jam or a fold are the best options.

 

[JMC9389]

Sorry this took so long folks. Had a crappy end of the day at work yesterday and by the time I got home, I had to get the kids to bed.
Some great points by everyone here. My considerations made in real time were pretty much discussed in detail already. HJ's three bet range in my felt time against him is pretty narrow. I haven't known him at all to bluff in this spot with so many other players behind him with at least the CO, button, and blinds still to act as well as hero whom raised initially. There was a hand at JIJ that I was involved with against this particular villain during the main just a couple of weeks prior where I picked up queens, raised, and this villain ended up flatting with 10's, though I had position on him that time. Flop came 10 x x, he lead out and I called two streets until the board paired on the river and when he fired the third barrel, let it go. He didn't show but later said he had 10's, which I believe.

Anyway, sorry for getting off topic, but just a bit additional insight in this villain I figured I'd share as this played into my decision making process here. I believed with pretty high confidence that he wasn't three betting here with anything much worse than my hand, and probably had something better even.

The button flat didn't mean much to me as he's a player that I got the impression is pretty loose and liked to get involved in a lot of hands. He could literally have anything here because his range of holdings on the button are going to be pretty wide. Still, he's cold calling a three bet, so I'm figuring at minimum he has suited connectors, a suited ace, a low to middle pocket pair that he himself may be set mining, or something better that he may be slowplaying. I'm just not sure this villain would have that in him as I haven't had table time against him until tonight.

This was a tough spot. I hate a fold here. A reraise may get the button out, but the HJ three bet into so many players behind is really strong. JJ or better or AK strong. I'd probably get snapped off on a shove based on my read of the HJ, so I'd hate that option too. An additional 600 into a pot of 2675 is pretty much a 4.5 to 1 on a call, so that's what I end up doing. I complete and the pot is now 3275.

Flop comes

Hero?

 

[upNdown]

Sorry this took so long folks. Had a crappy end of the day at work yesterday and by the time I got home, I had to get the kids to bed.
Some great points by everyone here. My considerations made in real time were pretty much discussed in detail already. HJ's three bet range in my felt time against him is pretty narrow. I haven't known him at all to bluff in this spot with so many other players behind him with at least the CO, button, and blinds still to act as well as hero whom raised initially. There was a hand at JIJ that I was involved with against this particular villain during the main just a couple of weeks prior where I picked up queens, raised, and this villain ended up flatting with 10's, though I had position on him that time. Flop came 10 x x, he lead out and I called two streets until the board paired on the river and when he fired the third barrel, let it go. He didn't show but later said he had 10's, which I believe.

Anyway, sorry for getting off topic, but just a bit additional insight in this villain I figured I'd share as this played into my decision making process here. I believed with pretty high confidence that he wasn't three betting here with anything much worse than my hand, and probably had something better even.

The button flat didn't mean much to me as he's a player that I got the impression is pretty loose and liked to get involved in a lot of hands. He could literally have anything here because his range of holdings on the button are going to be pretty wide. Still, he's cold calling a three bet, so I'm figuring at minimum he has suited connectors, a suited ace, a low to middle pocket pair that he himself may be set mining, or something better that he may be slowplaying. I'm just not sure this villain would have that in him as I haven't had table time against him until tonight.

This was a tough spot. I hate a fold here. A reraise may get the button out, but the HJ three bet into so many players behind is really strong. JJ or better or AK strong. I'd probably get snapped off based on my read of the HJ, so I'd hate that option too. An additional 600 into a pot of 2675 is pretty much a 4.5 to 1 on a call, so that's what I end up doing. I complete and the pot is now 3275.

Flop comes

Hero?

See, this flop illustrates to me the problem with flatting. This is like the best possible flop for you (aside from a set, of course) and you’re in the exact same position you were in preflop - beating everything except QQ, KK, AA.
I really don’t know what to do here.
I think it’s either jam or check. I guess I’m leaning toward the check. A preflop jam would have chased away QQ, and occasionally KK, but it won’t now. As played, I think I’m check folding to the river.

 

[boltonguy]

I think you x here as you don’t have the range advantage or the nuts advantage, especially multi-way.

 

[JMC9389]

Picking up where we left off yesterday, the pot is 3275 and I see a very connected board with a flush draw out there as well. There's a backdoor spade draw for hero as well. There's merit to leading out here, but with a 3 bet and cold call behind, hero would hate to see another raise from either villain here. Hero has a little less than 8k left, but felt that stacks were still deep enough to play a hand of poker. With this, hero elects to check.

HJ bets 1000 into 3275, and the button raises to 3500. Pot is now 7775.

Hero?

 

[MrCatPants]

Picking up where we left off yesterday, the pot is 3275 and I see a very connected board with a flush draw out there as well. There's a backdoor spade draw for hero as well. There's merit to leading out here, but with a 3 bet and cold call behind, hero would hate to see another raise from either villain here. Hero has a little less than 8k left, but felt that stacks were still deep enough to play a hand of poker. With this, hero elects to check.

HJ bets 1000 into 3275, and the button raises to 3500. Pot is now 7775.

Hero?

You're behind at least one player and drawing to two outs or less. Let it go.

 

[upNdown]

Out! Out out out out out!
Fold.
If they’re doing this with 99 or 10 10, god bless them. Probably one of them is AK or better and our spade is no good. We’re out of position against a raise and a reraise, with not too much invested. Time to fold.

 

[Eriks]

While you could theoretically be ahead of AK/AQs from HJ and TT from BTN, I think it’s time to abandon ship.

 

[DontKnowWhen]

Little late to this party but...

Pre-flop UTG JJ is either at the top of your open-fold to 3bet range or the bottom of your open-continue vs 3bet range.

Much as I hate to fold JJ here (@Senzrock I hear ya'), UTG OOP against two players that might have been better.
By continuing with the bottom of your range, it puts you in a difficult decision. Different if it was UTG JJ against either a button defend (still OOP but against a wide range where you have the top of your range and can still have JJ+) or a blind complete (this would put your JJ at the top of your range and IP against a lone villain).

As @upNdown said, this is a good flop for you. Anytime you can get a "good" flop for your hand (short of flopping a set or quads) and still not really know what to do with it, should tell you it's not a good hand to be in there with.

As played, you can see most of the flop advice is abandon ship. That makes the pre-flop call wasted money. What boards would you have liked to see to continue on? Granted, by checking you got that information for free.

Anyways my 2¢.

Curious to see how this plays out.

 

[boltonguy]

Agree with the folds here

 

[Senzrock]

I realize this is probably more loose/aggressive than most will like, but I’m probably check-shoving this flop. Villain #1 downbet this flop, which, when it’s an amateur like this often means AK/AQ because they almost aways bet QQ/KK/AA for a healthier size on this flop texture. Villain 2 can just have sooooo many combo draws. It’s a rebuy tournament. I think we ship it and hope to hold vs the spades or 87s of the world.

 

[JMC9389]

Yeah, so this spot sucked.

Facing a re-raise out of position with an overpair with a connected board like this, hero went into the tank. Ultimately, this was going to be a fold or a shove. A call was out of the question as it would leave me with only a half a pot size bet behind. Ultimately, knowing HJ's profile, he's probably only doing this with JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, or maybe Ax of spades.

The button can still have anything here. Suited connectors, two pairs, and sets that he may be trying to protect against hero and HJ, but with the preflop action going the way it did, button shouldn't have to worry about that. He should be the one with all of the straight and flush draws here, as the board definitely favors his range over either of ours.

Anyway, with the thought that HJ has hero dominated, and with the thought that hero would hate a lot of cards that come out on the turn against the button, hero opts to fold.

Any other card that pairs the board, brings in four to the straight, a spade, or any other over card besides a Jack would be very bad here. To put it more simply, there are more cards hero doesn't want to see than those that he wants to see.

 

[MrCatPants]

Yeah, so this spot sucked.

Facing a re-raise out of position with an overpair with a connected board like this, hero went into the tank. Ultimately, this was going to be a fold or a shove. A call was out of the question as it would leave me with only a half a pot size bet behind. Ultimately, knowing HJ's profile, he's probably only doing this with JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, or maybe Ax of spades.

The button can still have anything here. Suited connectors, two pairs, and sets that he may be trying to protect against hero and HJ, but with the preflop action going the way it did, button shouldn't have to worry about that. He should be the one with all of the straight and flush draws here, as the board definitely favors his range over either of ours.

Anyway, with the thought that HJ has hero dominated, and with the thought that hero would hate a lot of cards that come out on the turn against the button, hero opts to fold.

Any other card that pairs the board, brings in four to the straight, a spade, or any other over card besides a Jack would be very bad here. To put it more simply, there are more cards hero doesn't want to see than those that he wants to see.

How did action run out from there? Was there a showdown?

 

[kirchhausen]

Just to follow in the spirit of the thread, I go step by step, but yes, this is a very standard spot to open 10 handed.

Hero raises to 450. Folds around until HJ, who's a pretty tight player, bumps it up to 1k. The high stack mentioned in the OP who's on the button in this hand cold calls. Blinds fold.

Hero?

Yuck. I hate when the tighties 3-bet our opens. That said, 550 with a call to win 2775, I'm never folding here. I don't like raising because we are probably up against either AK, bigger pair, or MAYBE AQss, which means we are flipping or behind all of HJs range. Add on we are closing the action, this spot is a clear call to me.

 

[kirchhausen]

Picking up where we left off yesterday, the pot is 3275 and I see a very connected board with a flush draw out there as well. There's a backdoor spade draw for hero as well. There's merit to leading out here, but with a 3 bet and cold call behind, hero would hate to see another raise from either villain here. Hero has a little less than 8k left, but felt that stacks were still deep enough to play a hand of poker. With this, hero elects to check.

HJ bets 1000 into 3275, and the button raises to 3500. Pot is now 7775.

Hero?

Not sure what that bet size means from HJ. I AM picking up what the button is representing, however. And I don't like it. You have no fold equity, so you are unlikely to ever bet anyone off this pot. Unless you are feeling super froggy I would fold.

 

[JMC9389]

How did action run out from there? Was there a showdown?

Honestly I only know the button won the hand and that it didn't get to a showdown. After I puke folded I got up to go to the bathroom. Not sure how the runout went.

Not sure what that bet size means from HJ. I AM picking up what the button is representing, however. And I don't like it. You have no fold equity, so you are unlikely to ever bet anyone off this pot. Unless you are feeling super froggy I would fold.

The spot was a pretty straight fold at the end of the day considering I wasn't really pot committed with the thought that I'm likely behind or at best flipping with HJ and that the flop absolutely smacked the button's three bet calling range and he probably picked up a bunch of equity. As mentioned, pretty much the only clean turns here are a non Spade 2, 3, or Jack. I'd hate pretty much everything else here.

 

[JMC9389]

Alright, plot twist time. There's a part 2 to this!

Just two nights ago, I ran into a very similar spot

Once again a full ring of 10 players. T10000 base with bounties. Blinds are 75/150, hero won a couple of nice pots early and has about a 14000 stack, largest at the table in this moment.

Hero is in the small blind, and once again looks down at

Folds around to UTG+ 1 with a slightly below starting stack who raises to 500. Folds around to HJ (different villain from last hand) whom is short stacked with about 3500 left, who shoves. Folds around to hero.

Hero?

 

[raynmanas]

is this one a rebuy as well?

 

[kirchhausen]

Alright, plot twist time. There's a part 2 to this!

Just two nights ago, I ran into a very similar spot

Once again a full ring of 10 players. T10000 base with bounties. Blinds are 75/150, hero won a couple of nice pots early and has about a 14000 stack, largest at the table in this moment.

Hero is in the small blind, and once again looks down at

Folds around to UTG+ 1 with a slightly below starting stack who raises to 500. Folds around to HJ (different villain from last hand) whom is short stacked with about 3500 left, who shoves. Folds around to hero.

Hero?

Do you have any sort of read on UTG+1? They definitely have fold equity, and a cold 4-bet jam would put them to the test. What would you think their opening range would be in this spot. It should be narrow in that position, but not everyone is positionally aware. Depending on your answers I could go 4bet, fold, or even call and evaluate a lop (probably my 3rd choice).