Foxwoods 2/5 PLO (this is a great game....) (1 Viewer)

bergs

Royal Flush
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
11,624
Reaction score
19,871
Location
East Valley, Arizona
Foxwoods 2/5 PLO. This is a great game - best I've seen in a long, long time at this property. Pots are regularly $500+ and all-ins are becoming the norm. BB just joined an already active table and is pushing it into flipament territory.

SB is a maniac and has been rebuying for $200 and sticking it in with the thinnest of draws. He complains that he always misses his draws and he rarely seems to have a made hand.

BB is a maniac and has been rebuying for $200 and sticking parts of it in blind. Top two pair at showdown is a huge hand for him.

UTG is a kid that is trying to play a TAG style but is putting his money in too frequently because he's friendly with BB.

Hero is UTG+1. I've been in the game for 2 hours, and I've only shown down one hand (flopped bottom set, checked behind on A river 3-handed and lost to a rivered set of aces). SB and BB think I'm a nit. Nobody else at the table knows me. I haven't been in a hand with SB or BB yet but I've gotten UTG to fold what I'm sure was a better hand and didn't get called in 2 other hands by CO and BTN where I turned or rivered the nuts. Not my usual overactive boisterous self.

CO is a hold'em player and is way overvaluing hands like AA and KK preflop. He also overvalues sets (he's lost with middle set twice and had to rebuy each time). I think this is his first time playing PLO in the casino but he's clearly played it in a home game or lower casino stakes - he understands the basics. He just won a nice pot with a flopped set and rivered the boat.

BTN is an older Asian guy that regularly plays 5/10 NLHE and is hyper aggressive but at this wild-ass table he's just a very competent TAG. Most dangerous player at the table in my opinion. He's gotten his money in three times that I've seen and each time he had either the nuts or a made hand (set or straight) with a better redraw.

There is one other player at the table (UTG +2) but he's already looking like he's going to fold when the hands are dealt. The other 2 players are up and walking around and not dealt in.

Stack sizes (rounded off):
SB: $250
BB: $250
UTG: $275
Hero: $415
CO: $400
BTN: $415

SB and BB post, UTG straddles $10. (Pot $27).

Hero is dealt Kd-Qd-Qs-9c.

Action?
 
With your nitty image I would pot here or like $35 ish isn't too bad either. But I think with the super maniacs and really shallow effective stacks you can put a lot of pressure on people pre flop, which is rare in PLO.

I think folding is equally fine and ignoring player images is the right move.

Calling is my least favourite option because it sound like you will face aggression behind you and stack sizes suck for just valuing your set mining potential. I always want to take charge in this hand so we don't make a mistake by folding out our equity, because some maniac decides it's a good time to punt off with his crappy draw.
 
Foxwoods 2/5 PLO. This is a great game - best I've seen in a long, long time at this property. Pots are regularly $500+

Stack sizes (rounded off):
SB: $250
BB: $250
UTG: $275
Hero: $415
CO: $400
BTN: $415

Is everyone in the hand stuck with the winners standing up? Is the SB willing to get it in preflop or does he usually wait for whatever draw he has on the flop?

I think there are 2 ways I would play this hand given stack sizes- 1 is raising $30 or so with the expectation of getting it in vs the maniacs if they 3bet, but also folding to most 3bets from CO or BTN unless too small to fold.

The other is limping- this is a completely fit or fold hand postflop and if we can get a multi way pot for one more bet or less... great. The trap there is if it goes limp/limp to the maniacs, they raise, you call and CO/BTN repots. Probably an easy fold but more costly than just raising originally. I like raising a lot better.
 
I end up deciding to give some action and narrow the field a bit with my holdings.

This is where things start to get interesting....

Foxwoods 2/5 PLO. This is a great game - best I've seen in a long, long time at this property.

SB is a maniac and has been rebuying for $200 and sticking it in with the thinnest of draws.

BB is a maniac and has been rebuying for $200 and sticking parts of it in blind. Top two pair at showdown is a huge hand for him.

UTG is a kid that is trying to play a TAG style but is putting his money in too frequently because he's friendly with BB.

Hero is UTG+1. I've been in the game for 2 hours, and I've only shown down one hand (flopped bottom pair, checked behind on A river 3-handed and lost to a rivered set of aces). SB and BB think I'm a nit. Nobody else at the table knows me. I haven't been in a hand with SB or BB yet but I've gotten UTG to fold what I'm sure was a better hand and didn't get called in 2 other hands by CO and BTN where I turned or rivered the nuts. Not my usual overactive boisterous self.

CO is a hold'em player and is way overvaluing hands like AA and KK preflop. He also overvalues sets (he's lost with middle set twice and had to rebuy each time). I think this is his first time playing PLO in the casino but he's clearly played it in a home game or lower casino stakes - he understands the basics. He just won a nice pot with a flopped set and rivered the boat.

BTN is an older Asian guy that regularly plays 5/10 NLHE and is hyper aggressive but at this table he's a competent TAG. Most dangerous player at the table in my opinon.

There is one other player at the table (UTG +2) but he's already looking like he's going to fold when the hands are dealt. The other 2 players are up and walking around and not dealt in.

Stack sizes (rounded off):
SB: $250
BB: $260
UTG: $275
Hero: $415
CO: $400
BTN: $415

SB and BB post, UTG straddles $10. Hero is dealt Kd-Qd-Qs-9c.

***************************************************************
Hero makes it $30, which is technically more than than the pot size, but the dealer is from the table games upstairs and doesn't know how to count the pot at PLO, and nobody else cares about the extra $3. CO calls, BTN calls, SB calls. BB hasn't looked at his hand yet (he declares this and I'm 95% sure it's accurate) and makes it $110 to go. UTG immediately cuts out chips and calls. Pot is ($360)

Action?
 
The whole table is short stacked playing ~40 'BB' due to the straddle. Hero has a problem. IS he willing to go to war with just a pair of queens? Or is hero going to be nuanced and revalue his hand once the flop hits? The answer to this question determines Hero's preflop plan.

Also, a player can't overvalue aces (or perhaps kings) preflop playing short stacked Omaha. If Hero gets tangled up in a preflop betting sequence that gets most of the money in prior to seeing the flop, he will be behind when facing KKxx or AAxx.

I see Hero's hand as a reasonably good hand for deeper stacks which becomes slightly weaker playing in an aggressive shallow game. Hero's hand is plenty good enough for a six handed game, even being first to act. It isn't quite a premium hand, but definitely not trash.

My plan - - - I suggest Hero limp and see what happens. {I see limp and raise as roughly equal and folding the worst choice.}

If it limps around, fine. Hero has a reasonable hand to flop big and if he misses - toss it even with queens as an overpair.

If Hero gets raised, then he has to evaluate the villain raising. Hero want's to play for {small} stacks vs SB or BB. Hero should fold vs a UTG or CO raise. Button isn't as clear one way or the other, my bias would be fold vs button but only slightly.

PS and now seeing the action while I was posting - I say Hero should jam all-in. Never ever flatting that bet, the choice is fold or jam.
 
UTG doesn't have AAxx or KKxx almost 100%. Just guessing but you probably have something around 32% in a 4way pot. If you are 95% sure he didn't look at his hand, time to channel your inner gambol. Get it in, I'm guessing CO and BTN fold SB BB and UTG all call. BB has utter trash and flops quads.
 
UTG could have a wide array of hands, but if CO continues in this hand, he absolutely has AA or KK nearly 100% of the time.

I am virtually positive he didn't look at his hand. There was maybe 5 seconds where I wasn't looking at him, and this isn't the first time he's made a big blind bet.
 
Doctor - what's the argument against and for flatting?

For: You're getting the right odds assuming no more raises. Your hand is extremely easy to play 4 ways. Nobody in EP is ever folding pre.

Against: by allowing it to go multiway (4+) you could be giving up a ton of equity in an already huge pot relative to stack sizes. Nobody in EP is ever folding. We just put in half our effective stack (vs SB BB and UTG) without any real plan for the flop or further action from CO (probably would have 3b better pairs) or BTN, who I would be most worried about.
 
Last edited:
....
SB and BB post, UTG straddles $10. Hero is dealt Kd-Qd-Qs-9c.

***************************************************************
Hero makes it $30, which is technically more than than the pot size....

OK, I have better than a full bottle of wine in me from dinner, but isn't hero's max raise $27 + $10 = $37 total? Or have I forgotten how to play PL?
 
OK, I have better than a full bottle of wine in me from dinner, but isn't hero's max raise $27 + $10 = $37 total? Or have I forgotten how to play PL?

Now that you mention it, that's true. I didnt say pot - I threw in a green and redbird, but pot size computations were neighborhood-type estimates for most of my play at this table (at least for this down given the dealer's inexperience and the table reticence in doing anything to limit action)
 
The problem with flatting is the SPR almost pot commits Hero vs further preflop aggression or on a flop where QQ is an overpair. Hero is going to have $305 left and the pot will be at least $420 even if everyone else folds.

I have a hard time seeing how Hero ever finds a fold on the flop if BB just blind bets all-in - which he might since he put in $110 of his $260 stack. That leaves $150 into a $420 pot betting blind.

Or how about UTG who has $175 left after flatting the blind bet - can he make hero fold on the flop?

So why invite all the donkey train into the pot and make the flop decision harder? I am not doing that - If Hero is fearful, then fold, otherwise jam it in just like you have pocket aces and look fierce.
 
I feel like a shove is almost mandatory here, in such an actiony game. We may even get a KK hand, some strong wrappy-type hands to fold, and/or hands with Ax of diamonds, since our image is TAGgy. If we shove, it looks like an AA hand, leaning toward the premium side.

The only players we really fear are CO and BTN, who have shown little strength in this hand. It will be hard for either of them to give us $400+ in action with only $30 up without something really premium. It's not impossible for one of them to have a shoving hand, but I wouldn't count on it.

UTG's flat of the 3-bet is the strongest play so far, and even that is not necessarily strong, based on the intro description. Based on stack sizes, we'll probably get called by both BB and UTG, which isn't so bad given that they both stand to be pretty weak. And if one or both of them folds, that's great too, since there's so much dead money out.
 
OK, nobody is folding. Neither was I (it would be a blissfully short but lol thread if I did, I suppose).

CO is a hold'em player and is way overvaluing hands like AA and KK preflop. He also overvalues sets (he's lost with middle set twice and had to rebuy each time). I think this is his first time playing PLO in the casino but he's clearly played it in a home game or lower casino stakes - he understands the basics. He just won a nice pot with a flopped set and rivered the boat.

BTN is an older Asian guy that regularly plays 5/10 NLHE and is hyper aggressive but at this table he's a competent TAG. Most dangerous player at the table in my opinon.

There is one other player at the table (UTG +2) but he's already looking like he's going to fold when the hands are dealt. The other 2 players are up and walking around and not dealt in.

Stack sizes (rounded off):
SB: $250
BB: $260
UTG: $275
Hero: $415
CO: $400
BTN: $415

SB and BB post, UTG straddles $10. Hero is dealt Kd-Qd-Qs-9c.

Hero makes it $30, which is technically more than than the pot size, but the dealer is from the table games upstairs and doesn't know how to count the pot at PLO, and nobody else cares about the extra $3. CO calls, BTN calls, SB calls. BB hasn't looked at his hand yet (he declares this and I'm 95% sure it's accurate) and makes it $110 to go. UTG immediately cuts out chips and calls.

***************************************************************
Hero calls, CO immediately calls, BTN immediately calls, SB is calling before BTN can even get his chips in. Note that CO is not calling this without either KKxx or AAxxx. Zero percent chance he doesn't have one of these hands, and I think the entire table knows this at this point.

Flop ($660) Jc-8c-4d

SB quickly jams for $140. BB (still playing his hand blind) immediately jams for $150. UTG tanks for about 15 seconds and jams for $165.

Pot is ($1,115). Hero has $305 left in his stack. CO has $290, BTN has $300.

SB and BB could have virtually anything here. Hell, my queens might be good. I'm interested in what people are ranging UTG with.

Action?
 
I didn't expect CO and BTN to call pre - I thought I'd be 4 handed with 2 big donors and 1 reasonably good player.

I think BTN will call this flop. I'm not sure about CO. The presence of 2 maniac donkey donors is making it hard to figure out what everyone else is thinking other than "Get That Money..."
 
I would have to really stop and think about ranges for this spot to give a 100% accurate answer.

When you flat pre you are really just using the value of your QQ with some other rare flops you smash like nut Broadway rainbow or diamond draws with an over pair.

Now that we have this action in front, am pretty confident it's a fold. You would be giving your opponents 20% to call and I'm assuming it's hard for you to have the odds.

Pretty complicated spot to work out at the table so defiantly one worth studying, but I think for sure preflop we should have shoved this hand.
 
Hero is getting huge odds - though actual chances to win are slim. It is close to a toss up in my mind. Hero is getting something like 8-1 or 9-1 on the main pot and then there is a side pot where Hero isn't so well off. Maybe it is a three way side pot or maybe it is a two way - this matters a lot. Hero is likely +EV in a six way all in and likely -EV in a five way.

What can Hero hope for? We stipulate that the queens are no good unimproved and that the guy playing AA or KK is sticky and thinks in hold'em terms. So he doesn't fold to Hero's jam. (yet one wonders how such a player didn't jam all-in preflop, he should have . . . . )

So now Hero is hoping to hit one of three ways (and he has to hit since OP states 100% that AA or KK are in play and not folding.
- spike a queen for top set and either hope it holds up or hit a runner-runner over-full house. Let's give Hero 5% main pot equity from that. (8% in the side pot)
- hit the gut shot ten for the straight and hope it holds up. Let's give Hero 9% main pot equity for that (13% in the side pot)
- hit a runner runner flush and hope that wins. let's give Hero 2% main pot equity for that (3% in the side pot)

So Hero has 16% equity on the main pot and 24% equity in the side pot. What ever Hero does here, it isn't a big mistake one way or the other maybe +/- $20 in equity.

Does Hero feel lucky? It boils down to that for me -=- DrStrange
 
Ugly. I'm folding to the cascade of shoves on the flop. I think DrStrange is estimating our equity in this pot too generously.

Notice:
  • Spiking a queen always fills a straight. Half the time it fills a flush too, and it always precludes the runner-runner flush and makes our straight outs weaker. We will seldom be good without hitting runner-runner boat/quads, which is even less likely than usual given the action. (How many Js, 8s, and 4s are in other people's hands?) I wouldn't even give this 1%.
  • Straights are often duplicated in big, multi-way PLO hands. Even if we hit our 3-outer gutshot and fade a flush and the board pairing afterward, it's no guarantee to the whole pot, or even the whole side or main pot.
  • Backdoor flush equity seems like a reasonable estimate.
All in all, I don't think we have even 10% of either pot (assuming a meaningful side pot happens), never mind 16% or 24%. All we have is a very slim drawing hand in a game where hand values run big, and a chance to escape for the $110 call we shouldn't have made. (Of course, the fact that this post exists tells me that Bergs is going to shove and catch the runner-runner flush, including the :ad:, to scoop everyone, but I don't want to be results-oriented.)

I'm really interested to see what people turn up.
 
.... really interested to see what people turn up.

Well, we know BB has 4 random cards, CO has AAXX or KKXX, SB could have any 4 random cards that even marginally connected with this board (example - if he could get runner runner to scoop he's playing it this way), and if BTN gives action he has at least 2 pair with an open ended if not a set and a flush draw.

Hands like this caused people's holdings to be pretty polarized when they give the 2 big donators in the blinds the action they so desperately crave.

I can't put UTG on a hand and that's concerning, and I'm virtually positive that we're behind BTN right now (and behind CO too but he's not winning this pot with AA or KK unless he makes a set and probably not even then).
 
Also offsuit gutter outs and (most of the time) running diamonds.
my thought is the range of so many of these hands contain 10s that they might be gone from the deck, lots of 910xx combo hands

and diamonds might not even be good if they get there, clean outs where you are scooping are running boats or quads IMO
 
my thought is the range of so many of these hands contain 10s that they might be gone from the deck, lots of 910xx combo hands

and diamonds might not even be good if they get there, clean outs where you are scooping are running boats or quads IMO

Obviously yeah running boats and quads are great and I think it's fine to slightly lower our equity estimate to account for the fact that one 10 is possibly in one of the villains' hands, but to say running diamonds might not be good is really to say that a majority of the time they will be, so that's a fair bit of equity we should plug in there.

Anyway, I'm not saying it's a call on the basis of that alone, but it should figure in. Ultimately I'm on the call train, but not loving it by any means and could not fault folding in this spot.
 
I did not apply "normal" PLO thinking to my ranging because of the short stacks and the wild men in the blinds. This is a feeding frenzy situation, not one where everyone is making careful calculations trying to protect a 400bb stack. If people were playing $4,000 stacks rather than less than $500 stacks, we would expect to see huge hands to justify the all-in bets. This is not likely to be a hand where we see top set vs wrap + flush draw vs nut flush draw + OESD vs current nut straight. Each player is effectively buying a lotto ticket hoping to bink a win.

There could be monsters under the bed, but more likely not. Hero isn't in great shape, but he doesn't need to be given the odds offered. Fold if you prefer, it isn't obvious that is an error but neither is it obviously time to run for the hills.

Do you feel lucky is as valid as doing the math! [ Not really true, but it could be true those days you are lucky enough. ] -=- DrStrange
 
Really? I can call off $165 for a $1650ish pot if CO and BTN call (and I think at least CO will call here)...

This is a dangerous way of thinking about a pot-committing call.

If CO and/or BTN remain involved, we're essentially playing for our whole remaining stack. Just because it will go in $165 first and then the rest doesn't mean we should look at the $165 call and the remaining $140 individually. If we expect either or both of them to stay in, this is a $305 decision.

And really, if we are staying in, we should be shoving now to make it harder for CO and/or BTN to call. The pot is big enough that our main concern should be maximizing our chances of winning what's out there, rather than trying to lure in extra money (from people who stand to be ahead of us, no less, and who may even dominate/duplicate some of our already-thin draws).
 
This is a dangerous way of thinking about a pot-committing call.

If CO and/or BTN remain involved, we're essentially playing for our whole remaining stack. Just because it will go in $165 first and then the rest doesn't mean we should look at the $165 call and the remaining $140 individually. If we expect either or both of them to stay in, this is a $305 decision.

And really, if we are staying in, we should be shoving now to make it harder for CO and/or BTN to call. The pot is big enough that our main concern should be maximizing our chances of winning what's out there, rather than trying to lure in extra money (from people who stand to be ahead of us, no less, and who may even dominate/duplicate some of our already-thin draws).

This was one of my objectives in posting the thread. I was surprised afterwords with how the action unfolded in such a way that I felt comfortable calling the bet(s) on the flop but never would've called if someone had outright jammed.

The other goal of the thread was to see if my play was just pure spew. The table talk afterwords was around "OMG how did all these hands see showdown?!?" and I wasn't sure if this was me just wanting GAMBBOOOOOL or if the decisions I made were even marginally defensible.

The great and glorious end awaits us when I get back to the house this afternoon.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account and join our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Back
Top Bottom