Fold AK in this spot ever? (2 Viewers)

Gaidzahg

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I was playing in a 2-5 game at Potawatomi in Milwaukee and this hand came up.

The background to the hand is that Seat 6 and I (Seat 1) had been playing at this table together for about 6 hours. I considered him to be the strongest player at the table. He had generally been staying out of my way and I his. Seat 5 was a rec player who seemed to be playing too many hands preflop, although his postflop play wasn't too bad.

I was also mostly card dead the entire session so I felt that from the other players' perspective I must have seemed to be playing supertight aggressive. When I had a hand I generally played it strong, it's just that the hands very few and far between.

When this hand came up I was in MP with about $1200, and there was a straddle. The straddler was a young guy in Seat 8 who was on tilt from getting raped repeatedly by the maniac directly to his left in Seat 9.

It was folded to me and I made it $30. Seat 5 on the button called and then the Seat 6 in the SB popped it up to $140. Both players had me covered. It was folded back to me and I tanked. My reasoning at the time was
—he's only seen me turn over strong holdings and he's raising me OOP anyway
—if he has AA I'm crushed
—if he has KK I'm way behind, and if I flop an ace, he may not give me any action
—if he has QQ or a lower pair it's a coin toss, and if an ace or king flop, he may not give me action
—Seat 5 is still live and from what I've seen of his play he will most likely call if I do and his range will be wide enough to be problematic

I thought about repopping to $300 or flatting, but eventually I folded. Now I think I was maybe a little too nitty. Thoughts?
 
It really seems you have the SB on a very narrow range. I think you would have to be pretty confident in the range that it is literally QQ-AA to consider a fold If he has any AK,AQ or other pairs your hand is too good to fold. I think I would just flat here since the pot is laying at least 2-1 and even more if the other player comes along. That's a decent price even if you are against KK. This sizing is what I might use on a small blind squeeze fwiw, but you would know if your villian has that play in him.

I don't think raising makes sense if you have him on a tight range. He probably isn't folding anything to a 4 bet and you are at best a coin flip against anything else, so it doesn't seem good to bloat the pot here.

But 110 to win at least 200 and possibly 310, I think you take a peek.
 
Seems way too tight against a good player. People squeeze the MP out of the SB with many worse hands. SB and BB ranges play well as raises OOP to minimize positional advantage postflop so this could be fairly wide and include suited connectors, mid range pairs and suited broadways. It isn’t just QQ+
 
I dunno, people do goofy shit with suited ace rag because "removal" these days.

I'm in favor of calling in position and making a decision on the flop. If the other guy comes along it makes it a little harder for villain OOP to bluff into both of you, since your range is strong and the other players is ATC
 
Way too snug a fold IMO. That’s a pretty small open to 3x and this is a fairly standard 3b squeeze spot from the small blind with 99+, AXs, and some suited broadways. I’m fine either taking a flop in position if I think the button is weak and folding or 4 betting to something like $400, and probably folding to a shove.

Is your AK suited or offsuit? It suited its an even tighter fold against all but the nittiest of players.
 
I think too often people level themselves into thinking, "I'm playing so tight, so they wouldn't raise me without something really strong." I don't find this to be as big a factor as people think, especially when both players are knowledgeable about the game.

This is a mixed strategy spot of calling and raising. Given we only started the hand 120bb deep effective, if we 4 bet, we should be planning to get it all in pre if jammed on. Because of our hand, there are only 6 combos of AA and KK in total. So we can't be overly worried about that unless we have some soul read on the villain. Often we will will be flipping, chopping, and every now and then crushing AQ. Plus the villain might just fold to a 4 bet.
 
Definitely flat. Re-assess the flop. AK is a premium hand. You have him at the very top of his range. There are a lot of hands in his range that you dominate if you flop a pair. IMO its an absolute call.
 
I think too often people level themselves into thinking, "I'm playing so tight, so they wouldn't raise me without something really strong."
I honestly doubt OP plays this tight normally, so this was probably how OP thought after being card dead for 6 hours. If we isolated ourselves away from the context of the entire game, this was at least a call and can see this being a 5 bet shove
 
You’re blocking AA and KK... Doesn’t mean he doesn’t have either. Everytime I make a bad decision “BECAUSE BLOCKERS,” it seems they have precisely what they’re statistically less likely to have.

But you do block them, partially. They have way more QQ and JJ and maybe smaller pairs or even suited connectors making a play.

If you don’t call, it’s too exploitable. Or at least that’s what my poker podcasts say.

At the same time... I’ve folded theoretically unfoldable hands in situations where the table was so soft that there was really no reason to tangle with the one really good player. You’re giving up equity against him to preserve your stack for when you double up against someone much worse.

Likewise, I was in a VFW cash game recently where a very drunk player made a move against me that I was maybe 70% sure was a bluff. I left a bunch of money on the table, probably, by folding. But I was sure I’d get it all back soon enough, at no risk, once I had a big hand and he bluffed into me again... and I did.
 
You’re blocking AA and KK... Doesn’t mean he doesn’t have either. Everytime I make a bad decision “BECAUSE BLOCKERS,” it seems they have precisely what they’re statistically less likely to have.

But you do block them, partially. They have way more QQ and JJ and maybe smaller pairs or even suited connectors making a play.

If you don’t call, it’s too exploitable. Or at least that’s what my poker podcasts say.
I incorporate removal effects into my strategy but honestly it’s not THAT powerful preflop. Sure you block AA, KK here but you also block all the suited aces and some suited K that you dominate.

It’ll make you a better player but sometimes people have way too high of expectations and that’s why I think the meme is around. There are some spots where it’s powerful...top set blocking calling range, NFD blocker, but most of the time the best use I’ve found is to pick your bluffs marginally better if you are trying to hit some specific value to bluff freqs.
 
Pro move here with a pro’s bankroll that simply rebuys if he loses. I’m sure solvers would support this move, but for Rec and Amateur players this is a high variance play. Despite AK improving 40% of the time by the river. IMO

Seat 6 was described as a good player. Good players 3 bet in the SB with lots of hands as they should, and as described above. With AK you want to put money in the pot with a range advantage. So it’s an easy 4 bet to something like 2.5x the 3 bet to something like $350. If you’ve committed 350 with a total stack of 1200 you’re calling any shove. I might even exploitatively 3 bet to 400 so that calling a 5 bet shove is easier. And I’m happy for them to fold to my 4 bet with their A5 suited or 89suited to take down the pot.

Flatting the 3 bet by no means is a mistake. It’s completely fine sometimes.

Folding to the 3 bet is absolutely a mistake unless you 100% know they only 3 bet with AA KK. Even if you know this and you are all in against AA/KK your equity isn’t as bad as you think. Against KK you still have 30% equity.

There really is no tough decision in my opinion. 100-150bb Pre flop play is basically solved. Post flop play and bet sizing post flop are where the money is made these days.
 
BTW I just wanted to say calling a 5 bet shove is for sure debatable. I definitely would, but not all players would, especially high stakes players (I'm not a HS player)... they may call suited AK's but fold offsuit AK's depending on position and situation.... but I think I am pretty confident that at minimum calling a 5 bet shove with AKo is not a huge/blatant mistake.
 
All choices are fine. I would prefer 3 bet but folding is fine. You playing a cash game, no need to be involved in a hand you not comfortable with unless you want to flip for your entire stack, witch I think you are not. You get involved it's better to be pitcher than catcher. But sometimes, just sometimes it's good to listen to your intuition.
So much for strategy but most people would consider folding AK pre a bit nitty.
 
All choices are fine. I would prefer 3 bet but folding is fine. You playing a cash game, no need to be involved in a hand you not comfortable with unless you want to flip for your entire stack, witch I think you are not. You get involved it's better to be pitcher than catcher. But sometimes, just sometimes it's good to listen to your intuition.
So much for strategy but most people would consider folding AK pre a bit nitty.

Nah, folding for sure is a mistake.
 
Sure. Are you willing to flip in this spot?

I dunno if you’re implying that AK is 50/50 against the SB range (it’s not, it’s ahead) but calling $110 into a pot of $215 you don’t even need that much equity. And this is all before you factor in the $1000 behind that you have positional advantage postflop
 
I dunno if you’re implying that AK is 50/50 against the SB range (it’s not, it’s ahead) but calling $110 into a pot of $215 you don’t even need that much equity. And this is all before you factor in the $1000 behind that you have positional advantage postflop
I did. That's as I said I prefer to 3 bet instead of call. But from description of situation I gathered that HERO was not peticulary eager to play this hand. Well if you do not know what to do with a hand from the get-go, you often will make mistakes.
 
Folding AK to a 3 bet is too nitty. You are putting them on such a tight range of Aces or Kings, both of which you actually block. You say that Seat 6 was likely the strongest player there, which means I would prefer a four bet over a flat call. If you aren't confident enough to play AK after a three bet you should request a table change imo.
 
Folding is a big leak here. Don't do it. How often you should flat vs how often to reraise depends on villains 3bet range from the SB. If he likes to squeeze, you should lean toward 4 betting here more often. If he's fairly tight, then flatting is OK. If the other player is weak, particularly post flop, then flatting is also a good lean as you can exploit his mistakes post flop for additional value.
 
I'll be the contrarian here, it seems.
If you are uncomfortable going into a hand preflop, there is very little chance that you are going to be in a good spot further along.
I say, take a deep breath and fold, there will be another hand dealt in about 90 seconds. Watch how the hand plays out and try to reconcile your unease with what you see happen. Was your spidey sense correct?
Remember, it is one long game.
I should add that I try to decide what I'm going to do next, in this case after the flop, before I decide on my current action. Consider the different board textures and the possible actions of the player in front of you.
If you miss the flop, which most of your hands will, and the SB fires again, what are you going to do? If the SB is a good player, you are going to be reacting the entire hand unless you crush the flop.
 
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I'll be the contrarian here, it seems.
If you are uncomfortable going into a hand preflop, there is very little chance that you are going to be in a good spot further along.
I say, take a deep breath and fold, there will be another hand dealt in about 90 seconds. Watch how the hand plays out and try to reconcile your unease with what you see happen. Was your spidey sense correct?
Remember, it is one long game.
I should add that I try to decide what I'm going to do next, in this case after the flop, before I decide on my current action. Consider the different board textures and the possible actions of the player in front of you.
If you miss the flop, which most of your hands will, and the SB fires again, what are you going to do? If the SB is a good player, you are going to be reacting the entire hand unless you crush the flop.
No. No. No. No.

You can't get better by avoiding tough spots. You need more than a 3 bet as a reason to fold AK pre flop. You have position on the 3 bettor and can dictate the size of the pot assuming the button folds. You are getting too good a price with AK to just fold.

It's such an easy squeeze spot for a good player. They would be doing this with nearly any hand they are going to play from SB. If you are afraid to play for stacks preflop for 120bb with AK, then I'm not sure how you can achieve a decent long term win rate in the game.

This is a call at the minimum, and given the player in between, likely a 4 bet spot. Either is good. But folding is 100% incorrect IMO.
 
I think too often people level themselves into thinking, "I'm playing so tight, so they wouldn't raise me without something really strong." I don't find this to be as big a factor as people think, especially when both players are knowledgeable about the game.

This is a mixed strategy spot of calling and raising. Given we only started the hand 120bb deep effective, if we 4 bet, we should be planning to get it all in pre if jammed on. Because of our hand, there are only 6 combos of AA and KK in total. So we can't be overly worried about that unless we have some soul read on the villain. Often we will will be flipping, chopping, and every now and then crushing AQ. Plus the villain might just fold to a 4 bet.

I would be thinking the opposite. ‘This guy thinks I’m so tight, I bet I hes trying to get me to fold a good hand.’ Boy was he right!

call this in position so the third guy stays in and play your game. Above all, don’t ‘put him on aces or kings’. Or admit you are super tight. That’s cool too. Low variance is good
 
I would be thinking the opposite. ‘This guy thinks I’m so tight, I bet I hes trying to get me to fold a good hand.’ Boy was he right!

call this in position so the third guy stays in and play your game. Above all, don’t ‘put him on aces or kings’. Or admit you are super tight. That’s cool too. Low variance is good
I was saying what you are saying. Too often people think because they are playing tight that people won't play against them without the goods. But that just isn't true, especially with good players. A good player will attack an overly tight player that never seem to adjust especially based on position. Or a good player will make no strict assumption about the looseness or tightness of another good player. A good player would know that the other good player could just be getting a bad run of cards or a good run.
 
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